America's obsession with guns

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Oh. Who?

David Tennant?

[Jeanne]

It is interestingly disturbing that one person's information is seen as misinformation because of another's opinion that it is just plan wrong. That it is dismissed as "quibbles", that is objections about a trivial subject, seems bizarre during a debate about this topic.

If we are trying to understand the other's point of view...not change their minds, but understand the topic from a differing point of view and constantly belittle that point of view, well then there is no debate, just a school-yard scuffle.

It was my contention that the explanation for Far-Right given was uninformed. It contained people and groups of much diversity and my assumption was that it was made using a lack of information about the groups and people mentioned; that is, the person explaining was uninformed.

While I will agree that there are more pressing matters at hand in our country, this was the debate being had currently in this forum. And...because this one topic causes so much anger and mistrust of others, it deserves to be addressed with some seriousness.

I do not think America is obsessed with guns. I do think Americans are obsessed with losing their liberty and their natural rights, which were well enumerated in our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights. Some liberties are considered more worthy depending on which side of the political fence one falls. In my opinion, the loss of the ability to defend those liberties leaves the others most vulnerable.

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

What fears do those on the left have about their liberties? Are they truly any different from those on the right...or in the middle, where many of us seem to fall? Is the dividing line our Second Amendment and if it is, then why so? The first defense may become the last defense; that is our Bill of Rights, which states specifically what the individual rights of citizens are and how they are to be protected from government is too important to be tossed aside as no longer needed. And...yes, in the final analysis, it is the right to be armed that will keep the central government in check, and that is exactly what it is for.

We have had it so very easy in this country for such a long, long time. We have ignored the progressive nudging towards becoming a Socialist State for various reasons. We have taken for granted our largesse, food, water, and international power...and our liberties so abundant. Those who haven't had this privilege watch in horror as we put them all at risk for comfort, security and the desire to be apathetic. Some came recently from countries destroyed by tyrants and cannot believe that our citizens are so blithely unaware of what is at stake, begging us to reconsider the path we are hurtling down at present.

People use guns to kill. Criminals must be fully prosecuted when using a gun during a crime. Some people should not be allowed access to guns. Crime will not stop if there are no guns. Killing will not stop, suicides will not stop and tragic accidents will not stop if there are no guns.

If banning guns saves lives, it is NOT worth the loss of liberty naturally granted to have the right to bear arms for the stated purpose of the Second Amendment. That is my bottom line and it is a harsh one I will admit to you. This is a harsh world and I will not have any of us left defenseless against those who would enslave us.

But...perhaps, it would be a good thing to consider here what we feel is the difference between liberty and slavery.

-Jeanne

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Hundreds of millions of guns in this country. Quibble over that.

[Brian37]

It is interestingly disturbing that one person's information is seen as misinformation because of another's opinion that it is just plan wrong.  That it is dismissed as "quibbles", that is objections about a trivial subject, seems bizarre during a debate about this topic.

If we are trying to understand the other's point of view...not change their minds, but understand the topic from a differing point of view and constantly belittle that point of view, well then there is no debate, just a school-yard scuffle.

It was my contention that the explanation for Far-Right given was uninformed.  It contained people and groups of much diversity and my assumption was that it was made using a lack of information about the groups and people mentioned; that is, the person explaining was uninformed.

While I will agree that there are more pressing matters at hand in our country, this was the debate being had currently in this forum.  And...because this one topic causes so much anger and mistrust of others, it deserves to be addressed with some seriousness.

I do not think America is obsessed with guns.  I do think Americans are obsessed with losing their liberty and their natural rights, which were well enumerated in our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.  Some liberties are considered more worthy depending on which side of the political fence one falls.  In my opinion, the loss of the ability to defend those liberties leaves the others most vulnerable.  

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty.  When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."  Thomas Jefferson.

What fears do those on the left have about their liberties?  Are they truly any different from those on the right...or in the middle, where many of us seem to fall?  Is the dividing line our Second Amendment and if it is, then why so?  The first defense may become the last defense; that is our Bill of Rights, which states specifically what the individual rights of citizens are and how they are to be protected from government is too important to be tossed aside as no longer needed.  And...yes, in the final analysis, it is the right to be armed that will keep the central government in check, and that is exactly what it is for.

We have had it so very easy in this country for such a long, long time.  We have ignored the progressive nudging towards becoming a Socialist State for various reasons.  We have taken for granted our largesse, food, water, and international power...and our liberties so abundant.  Those who haven't had this privilege watch in horror as we put them all at risk for comfort, security and the desire to be apathetic.  Some came recently from countries destroyed by tyrants and cannot believe that our citizens are so blithely unaware of what is at stake, begging us to reconsider the path we are hurtling down at present.

People use guns to kill.  Criminals must be fully prosecuted when using a gun during a crime.  Some people should not be allowed access to guns.  Crime will not stop if there are no guns.  Killing will not stop, suicides will not stop and tragic accidents will not stop if there are no guns.

If banning guns saves lives, it is NOT worth the loss of liberty naturally granted to have the right to bear arms for the stated purpose of the Second Amendment.  That is my bottom line and it is a harsh one I will admit to you.  This is a harsh world and I will not have any of us left defenseless against those who would enslave us.

But...perhaps, it would be a good thing to consider here what we feel is the difference between liberty and slavery.

-Jeanne

Yes America DOES have an obsession with firearms, so much so 36,000 die per year using a firearm. So much so that when you point out the fact a user is more likely to hurt themselves than successfully defend themselves in a stranger on stranger conflict, they act like you are a serial killer.

That is not to say the majority of firearm owners are far right, they are not. But just like Islam has a hard time admitting their is a problem in parts of the world. A minority of firearm owners are so scared of any slight bit of change, they hold the majority of America hostage.

The obsession is a big enough MINORITY holding progress back. 

Most Americans including firearm owners WANT a universal background check. And any sane firearm owner would also be right in saying they don't want any unauthorized use of their firearms but a big enough minority scream at the suggestion of smartguns. If I owned a firearm, I would want it to be just like a modern car, if it get's stolen, it can be tracked.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The idea that the gun owners of America could hold the government at bay strikes me as a more than a bit farfetched.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The idea that the gun owners of America could hold the government at bay strikes me as a more than a bit farfetched.

"Idiotic" is the world my warrior friends use. Fatass'd factory workers with dreams of glory would be severed by a SAW. 

Myself, I'd just show them some Justice and Mercy. 

[The Grand Nudger]

The idea that the gun owners of America could hold the government at bay strikes me as a more than a bit farfetched.

"Idiotic" is the world my warrior friends use. Fatass'd factory workers with dreams of glory would be severed by a SAW. 

Myself, I'd just show them some Justice and Mercy. 

There's nothing in the redneck militia's arsenal that can match a 249 for what it does.  Except the FN M249S, commonly (and illegally) modified, which went on sale in 2015 to cover for slumping sales to the marines. The simpler solution to a competent gunner on a weapon like that is any long bolt gun- available at Walmart, most of the time for less than 100$.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Idiotic" is the world my warrior friends use. Fatass'd factory workers with dreams of glory would be severed by a SAW. 

Myself, I'd just show them some Justice and Mercy. 

There's nothing in the redneck militia's arsenal that can match a 249 for what it does.  Except the FN M249S, commonly (and illegally) modified, which went on sale in 2015 to cover for slumping sales to the marines.  The simpler solution to a competent gunner on a weapon like that is any long bolt gun- available at Walmart, most of the time for less than 100$.

That's why Ma Deuce was my dancing partner. Kill at four miles. (Not "aimed kill", just "kill".)

[The Grand Nudger]

I hit a pop up indirect, non-los with my saw back in the day.  Had my dismount lead spotting for me from a standing position while I was prone. Truth is I just pulled the trigger back and got my head down real quick, I was surprised as hell it hit. He was dancing like a common sailor.

(4kish, max range, ineffective, but still......a once in a lifetime shot. I should have stopped shooting right then.)

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I hit a pop up indirect, non-los with my saw back in the day.  Had my dismount lead spotting for me from a standing position while I was prone.  Truth is I just pulled the trigger back and got my head down real quick, I was surprised as hell it hit.  He was dancing like a common sailor.

"I''d rather be lucky than good any day."