Testimony is Evidence

[RoadRunner79]

What did I reject other than their conclusions on testimony? Also I think you missed the point and misplaced your cognitive dissonance.

[The Grand Nudger]

"No dissonance, not a dissonance, you're the dissonance!"

[Ravenshire]

I'm going to address this point because it seems to really be bugging you:

I asked the question before, and I don't believe that any one answered,  but if you cannot trust others, and you cannot trust your own perception or memory, then what are you basing your beliefs on.

I do not know, and never have claimed to know, that my beliefs are 100% trustworthy. In point of fact, I showed they can't always be trusted. That is why I read extensively, both fiction and non-fiction. It's why I read articles that both agree and disagree with my held beliefs. It's why I question even the beliefs I hold as axioms. Can you say the same? Do you question your likely axiomatically held christian beliefs? I relish the opportunity to be proven wrong as well as being proven right because both help me to maintain the most truthful beliefs and positions I can.

---

In the other thread, when I pointed out that DNA evidence can be unreliable (and subjective) it was rightly pointed out, that this is one aspect of DNA; that of when there isn't a clean sample.  In fact the above bulleted arguments can both be made of DNA evidence.  If you google DNA evidence unreliable, you will find a number of articles that discuss this (many are focusing on the rise of technology and touch DNA), and you can also find that people have been falsely convicted because of an over reliance on DNA evidence.  Do your same conclusions follow with DNA evidence?

Here is but one example from a professor on Pshycology & Law  Here

As part of the “Psychology & Law” class that I teach, I set out to illustrate the point that contaminated forensic evidence of any kind (not just contaminated eyewitness evidence) can lead to a wrongful conviction

The following observation was noted in a demonstration where DNA evidence mistakenly pointed to a person.

The prosecution’s theory seems unaccountably accepting of the idea that a 4-year-old with no apparent connection to Leiterman was present and also bleeding when Mixer was murdered

I'm not pitting physical evidence agaisnt witness testimony.  I believe that in any individual case, that either the physical evidence or witness testimony may be more useful in giving you a picture of what occurred.  In one case, physical evidence may outweigh the testimony, and in another, testimony may be greater than the picture the physical evidence paints.  It all depends on the quality of the evidence.

---

As I stated before, I think that you need to show your reasons, why witness testimony and any flaws or shortcoming make testimony as a whole either not evidence or the least form of evidence (or whatever case you are trying to make).  Cherry picking examples does not make a case, and even the site you referenced earlier (for the video) stated that testimony is generally reliable.

As you say, cherry picking doesn't make your case:

When the testimony is obtained and reported right after the event took place, the witness’ memory is still fresh, which means that there is a higher chance that his or her account of the incident is still vivid in his or her mind. This makes his or her testimony more reliable.

Eye witness testimony isn't usually obtained "right after the event took place." It can take hours, days, weeks, even months for witnesses to be found. Further, you're cherry picking of new, not yet perfected technologies and mixed DNA samples undermines your argument more than it supports it. The wonderful thing about DNA testing (and any type of physical testing) is that it can be repeated, by different techs, in different labs at different times, even months, or in extreme cases, years later, by procedures that produce even more reliable results. Testimony (for a variety of reasons) gets more and more unreliable as it ages and cannot be tested (only corroborated). Physical evidence, unless tampered with, doesn't change. Current tests get improved, new tests are developed and the physical evidence is still there, still testable. Testimony can and does change, without any outside tampering. And, speaking of tampering. You've actually used evidence tampering as a reason for you argument in favor of testimony. I do hope you realize that evidence tampering is really no different than giving false testimony. We have to, to a degree, rely on the honesty of the people involved. Unfortunately for your argument, evidence tampering is easier to prove. Tampering with evidence leaves evidence of the tampering. Lying under oath, not so much.

Do you? Even if the witness is mistaken? Or lying? Or falsely remembering? Because it demonstrates the proposition well, it's valid?

I know some people who can convincingly "demonstrate the proposition" that you should buy their bridge. You want to buy?

No if they are mistaken or lying, then it doesn't demonstrate the proposition well.

Whether they're mistaken, lying, utterly honest or bat-shit crazy, if their testimony fits with the alleged case then it's demonstrating the proposition. If it demonstrates it convincingly, even if it's untrue, the prosecution (or defense) will use it, juries will hear it and convictions (or acquittals) will be handed out.

I'm not pitting physical evidence agaisnt witness testimony.

I'm calling bullshit on this statement. Anyone who believes someone justice can be served when a conviction on a serious charge has been handed down on the basis of testimony alone has dismissed the value of physical evidence.

Now that I've addressed the key points, I'll address one that you just can't seem to get, even though I have clearly stated it more than once.

As I stated before, I think that you need to show your reasons, why witness testimony and any flaws or shortcoming make testimony as a whole either not evidence or the least form of evidence (or whatever case you are trying to make).

I hold the opinion that testimony is only useful as, and should be limited in use and scope as, corroborating evidence. In no uncertain terms, I hold the opinion that no one facing a charge where the sentence would be a Prison (not to be confused with jail) term regardless of severity or in capital cases. You have, quite rightly, shown that physical evidence can be erroneous. What you have not shown is that testimony is as reliable as physical evidence, especially over time. Nor have you shown that errors in physical evidence testing cannot be corrected at a later, sometimes much later date or that errors in testimony can be corrected by further testimony. I hold that it is self evident that the shortcomings of testimony, as have been repeatedly demonstrated to you (no, I'm not going to list them all, again), should prohibit it's use as anything other than corroborating evidence. If the state can't build a case on physical evidence, they should postpone indictment until they can. If they can never build a case on physical evidence... Well, sucks to be them.

You're actually arguing to maintain the status quo in a world moving farther and farther from the time when "the testimony of two reliable witnesses shall be sufficient to convict" in a case of treason and toward a time where testimony will be insufficient to convict on any serious crime. The courts are seeing it, the lawyers are seeing it, the forensic pathologists are seeing it jurors are starting to see it, but you're not. Yeah, I call that emotional investment.

[Astonished]

I'm going to address this point because it seems to really be bugging you:

I asked the question before, and I don't believe that any one answered,  but if you cannot trust others, and you cannot trust your own perception or memory, then what are you basing your beliefs on.

I do not know, and never have claimed to know, that my beliefs are 100% trustworthy. In point of fact, I showed they can't always be trusted. That is why I read extensively, both fiction and non-fiction. It's why I read articles that both agree and disagree with my held beliefs. It's why I question even the beliefs I hold as axioms. Can you say the same? Do you question your likely axiomatically held christian beliefs? I relish the opportunity to be proven wrong as well as being proven right because both help me to maintain the most truthful beliefs and positions I can.

---

In the other thread, when I pointed out that DNA evidence can be unreliable (and subjective) it was rightly pointed out, that this is one aspect of DNA; that of when there isn't a clean sample.  In fact the above bulleted arguments can both be made of DNA evidence.  If you google DNA evidence unreliable, you will find a number of articles that discuss this (many are focusing on the rise of technology and touch DNA), and you can also find that people have been falsely convicted because of an over reliance on DNA evidence.  Do your same conclusions follow with DNA evidence?

Here is but one example from a professor on Pshycology & Law  Here

The following observation was noted in a demonstration where DNA evidence mistakenly pointed to a person.

I'm not pitting physical evidence agaisnt witness testimony.  I believe that in any individual case, that either the physical evidence or witness testimony may be more useful in giving you a picture of what occurred.  In one case, physical evidence may outweigh the testimony, and in another, testimony may be greater than the picture the physical evidence paints.  It all depends on the quality of the evidence.

---

As I stated before, I think that you need to show your reasons, why witness testimony and any flaws or shortcoming make testimony as a whole either not evidence or the least form of evidence (or whatever case you are trying to make).  Cherry picking examples does not make a case, and even the site you referenced earlier (for the video) stated that testimony is generally reliable.

As you say, cherry picking doesn't make your case:

When the testimony is obtained and reported right after the event took place, the witness’ memory is still fresh, which means that there is a higher chance that his or her account of the incident is still vivid in his or her mind. This makes his or her testimony more reliable.

Eye witness testimony isn't usually obtained "right after the event took place." It can take hours, days, weeks, even months for witnesses to be found. Further, you're cherry picking of new, not yet perfected technologies and mixed DNA samples undermines your argument more than it supports it. The wonderful thing about DNA testing (and any type of physical testing) is that it can be repeated, by different techs, in different labs at different times, even months, or in extreme cases, years later, by procedures that produce even more reliable results. Testimony (for a variety of reasons) gets more and more unreliable as it ages and cannot be tested (only corroborated). Physical evidence, unless tampered with, doesn't change. Current tests get improved, new tests are developed and the physical evidence is still there, still testable. Testimony can and does change, without any outside tampering. And, speaking of tampering. You've actually used evidence tampering as a reason for you argument in favor of testimony. I do hope you realize that evidence tampering is really no different than giving false testimony. We have to, to a degree, rely on the honesty of the people involved. Unfortunately for your argument, evidence tampering is easier to prove. Tampering with evidence leaves evidence of the tampering. Lying under oath, not so much.

No if they are mistaken or lying, then it doesn't demonstrate the proposition well.

Whether they're mistaken, lying, utterly honest or bat-shit crazy, if their testimony fits with the alleged case then it's demonstrating the proposition. If it demonstrates it convincingly, even if it's untrue, the prosecution (or defense) will use it, juries will hear it and convictions (or acquittals) will be handed out.

I'm not pitting physical evidence agaisnt witness testimony.

I'm calling bullshit on this statement. Anyone who believes someone justice can be served when a conviction on a serious charge has been handed down on the basis of testimony alone has dismissed the value of physical evidence.

Now that I've addressed the key points, I'll address one that you just can't seem to get, even though I have clearly stated it more than once.

As I stated before, I think that you need to show your reasons, why witness testimony and any flaws or shortcoming make testimony as a whole either not evidence or the least form of evidence (or whatever case you are trying to make).

I hold the opinion that testimony is only useful as, and should be limited in use and scope as, corroborating evidence. In no uncertain terms, I hold the opinion that no one facing a charge where the sentence would be a Prison (not to be confused with jail) term regardless of severity or in capital cases. You have, quite rightly, shown that physical evidence can be erroneous. What you have not shown is that testimony is as reliable as physical evidence, especially over time. Nor have you shown that errors in physical evidence testing cannot be corrected at a later, sometimes much later date or that errors in testimony can be corrected by further testimony. I hold that it is self evident that the shortcomings of testimony, as have been repeatedly demonstrated to you (no, I'm not going to list them all, again), should prohibit it's use as anything other than corroborating evidence. If the state can't build a case on physical evidence, they should postpone indictment until they can. If they can never build a case on physical evidence... Well, sucks to be them.

You're actually arguing to maintain the status quo in a world moving farther and farther from the time when "the testimony of two reliable witnesses shall be sufficient to convict" in a case of treason and toward a time where testimony will be insufficient to convict on any serious crime. The courts are seeing it, the lawyers are seeing it, the forensic pathologists are seeing it jurors are starting to see it, but you're not. Yeah, I call that emotional investment.

You forgot to mention he's shitting all over other evidence, so he's clearly bullshitting for that reason too. And he's constantly avoiding the fact that I've pointed out myriad legitimate reasons why testimony should be either disregarded as evidence or the worst sort of evidence and he seems to conveniently ignore it or dismiss it every time. Trying to prove an assertion with an assertion makes no sense. Testimony that has evidence to back it up is basically nothing more than another claim that needs to be proven. If it helps to bolster another claim, it's the evidence doing that, not the complementary claim.

[Redbeard The Pink]

Testimony will generally pass in day to day conversation for relatively mundane claims unless I'm talking to a pathological liar.

In the lab, in court, or in debate, do better. It's not hard if you're telling the truth.

[bennyboy]

What did I reject other than their conclusions on testimony?  Also I think you missed the point and misplaced your cognitive dissonance.

You still haven't commented on my testimonial that Jesus likes to suck penises.  Why are you ignoring evidence?!

[Astonished]

Testimony will generally pass in day to day conversation for relatively mundane claims unless I'm talking to a pathological liar.

In the lab, in court, or in debate, do better. It's not hard if you're telling the truth.

Sure, it passes, doesn't mean it's being given honestly or recalled accurately. That's the unfortunate nature of it. The fact that it's usually of little to no consequence and has such low stakes makes that everyday chit-chat fodder matter very little. When the stakes are higher, like betting on whether you have a soul and whether that soul is going to burn for eternity, it fucking matters A LOT.

[The Grand Nudger]

What did I reject other than their conclusions on testimony?  Also I think you missed the point and misplaced your cognitive dissonance.

You still haven't commented on my testimonial that Jesus likes to suck penises.  Why are you ignoring evidence?!

Good enough for me....so, building on that, aren't christians supposed to follow in His example?  

[Cyberman]

How many people gave witness testimony after being martyred?

I stole that from an old art joke:

An artist walks into a gallery with his portfolio. The gallery owner looks at the work approvingly and says, "Your work is wonderful. I'm sure it will sell very well. Come back to me when you're dead."

I think the original works better, but ok.

Do you still stand by the sentiment?

[Cyberman]

Do you? Even if the witness is mistaken? Or lying? Or falsely remembering? Because it demonstrates the proposition well, it's valid?

I know some people who can convincingly "demonstrate the proposition" that you should buy their bridge. You want to buy?

No if they are mistaken or lying, then it doesn't demonstrate the proposition well.

So how do we ascertain if they're mistaken or lying? If their testimony doesn't accord with our beliefs, or what?