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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 11:59 am
(October 17, 2017 at 12:12 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (October 17, 2017 at 9:10 am)MysticKnight Wrote: You define a human as a rational animal, or you can define a rational animal as a human. There is no real dilemma.
The supposed dilemma is predicated on the idea that God's existence is different from His essence, which is not the case. God's existence and essence are identical. God is only a title for that which has multiple attributes including Goodness-Itself (the 4th Way of Aquinas, gradients of Perfection).
Perfect words, and what you replied as follow up, perfect words as well.
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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 11:59 am
May as well have just said "amen", Mystic. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 12:01 pm
(October 19, 2017 at 11:59 am)Khemikal Wrote: May as well have just said "amen", Mystic.
May God guide our hearts to the beloved source of all value and the guidance by which to have a proper balance in love, loving justly and not unjustly. Amen!
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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 12:03 pm
Now if only god would send someone to resolve the dilemma, we'd be set.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 12:04 pm
Maybe he has, but the problem is people don't listen properly and don't try to understand nor seek the truth.
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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 12:06 pm
(This post was last modified: October 19, 2017 at 12:07 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
![[Image: tumblr_n8gsmc7LsZ1toamj8o3_500.gif]](https://68.media.tumblr.com/03f596a24e07b42a498b14d5c6015684/tumblr_n8gsmc7LsZ1toamj8o3_500.gif)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 12:13 pm
(October 19, 2017 at 10:05 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: (October 19, 2017 at 8:06 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Not having an answer that you would accept is not the same as having no answer.
 Go die in a fire. You had your chance to explain yourself. You chose instead to be a narcissistic cunt, and wave your finger all around. What makes you think we started this thread just so you could derail it to talk about your personal bugbears? We didn't.
Your impression of Divinity/Tiz isn't very convincing. Nor very clever. I mean, c'mon..."go die in a fire"? Is that the best you can do?
(October 19, 2017 at 10:05 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: If I'm being charitable, the best I can interpret your answer is that you believe in a metaphysics in which things just "are" intrinsically good or bad. That things are motivated to becoming by "essences" and "natures". That God's "goodness" somehow communicates itself to the human intellect by "supernatural means". It's an incoherent mess of medieval ideas that make no sense in light of our modern understanding of cause and effect, and natural law. It's a throwback to a time when we were ignorant of the nature of things. When instead of attributing a nut growing into an oak because of DNA and physics and chemistry, we postulated mysterious "essences of oak" that caused it to develop into an oak tree.
My general purpose is to recover necessary concepts that have been lost because of radical skepticism of the sort you peddle. You are not the only one that seems incapable of purging herself of the language of teleology and essential properties. Are you really going to try to tell me that an electron doesn't have a nature? Or that the form of an amino acid isn't just as important as it's chemical composition? Or that various composites do not have have unique dispositions? Without the connection between quantitative and qualitative properties there is no coherent way to understand anything because you've basically undermined the very notion that there actually are things, objects capable of existing independent of a knowing subject's interpretation. And yes it means something to be an oak as opposed to something else, just like it means something to be human, or an electron, or a star, or any other thing that is a thing.
Otherwise, here's another "dilemma": Are the positive findings of the scientific method true because they consistent or are they consistent because they are true?
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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 12:21 pm
(This post was last modified: October 19, 2017 at 12:23 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Then you're failing your general purpose, Neo. Is that bad in any non-arbitrary sense?
Is it good to achieve our purpose because it is good, or
Is it good because it is our purpose?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 1:45 pm
(This post was last modified: October 19, 2017 at 1:47 pm by Whateverist.)
(October 19, 2017 at 10:08 am)SteveII Wrote: The definition of God is the greatest conceivable being. As I have shown, there is no dilemma with such a concept. If you want to redefine God as something other than the traditional definition, go ahead. It does not apply to me.
Are you sure? Even if you decide you're going to define God as the greatest, what makes you so sure its greatness will be conceivable (discernible) to you? Won't you also have to define humans (or at least the faithful) as beings capable of discerning the greatest being so that you can qualify? Seems a little underhanded.
(October 19, 2017 at 11:53 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (October 19, 2017 at 10:23 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: My guess is that you screwed up the quote tags and fumbled the ball while trying to be clever. That was Hammy that said that, not Whateverist.
My apologies to Whateverist. I guess no one else ever makes editting mistakes.
That wasn't much of an upbraiding by her or me. No big deal.
(October 19, 2017 at 11:58 am)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote: (October 19, 2017 at 10:08 am)SteveII Wrote: The definition of God is the greatest conceivable being. As I have shown, there is no dilemma with such a concept. If you want to redefine God as something other than the traditional definition, go ahead. It does not apply to me. Does this definition actually free itself from dilemmas of subjectivity? Since it is obtained via human sense-making processes, how can one be sure that reality operates in strict accordance with how humans conceive things? Or for that matter, why should one assume that the human act of conceiving has any value or meaning outside of the human mind?
Ninja'd
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RE: Euthyphro dilemma
October 19, 2017 at 4:38 pm
(This post was last modified: October 19, 2017 at 4:43 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(October 19, 2017 at 1:28 am)Whateverist Wrote: (October 18, 2017 at 8:10 pm)Hammy Wrote: Yes the circle is perhaps wider than Kingpin and CL when it comes to worthy contributions to AF.... If we're talking OFF-TOPIC STUFF but NO THEIST is capable of rationally challenging atheism. Because there is no rational defense for an imaginary friend. So let's stop humoring them.
We disagree and it isn't because I think the stupid shit that fundies believe is worth discussing. It is because I'm interested to hear why intelligent people who disagree with me think what they do. Just because so many fundies are idiots doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with us is an idiot.
I don't think all theists are idiots but I do think all theism is idiotic. And hence not worth taking seriously.
My opinion is that you are misrepresenting what we actually disagree about. And you actually agree with me that theism is ridiculous and I am only suggesting we stop giving theism the benefit of the doubt. Hence why I see no problems with debating with theists when the subject isn't theism. When the subject is theism it's like debating whether Elvis is still alive: A total waste of time and energy. Humoring the belief that Elvis is still alive by addressing that belief as if it's a belief worth debating... is what I am suggesting we stop doing. And my point is that humoring theism is the equivalent of that.
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