How to answer "I know that I know that I know"?

[riaaneloff]

Hi and Welcome Woof to the forum.

Quick question: When you began speaking in tongues at such an early age did you know that you were pretending? Were you pretending?

You friend(s): As you said, you may not be able to convince them that they are being foolish. You can't change anyone unless they want to change themselves. (well, actually you can but it's an ugly process)

1) god is great but he allows his creations to suffer/die. That would only mean he is not great or does not care or there is no loving creator. Every time something bad happens to them I'd ask "Is this gods will?".
2) The bible could be made correlate to any time in existence. This time is not special. 
3) There may be no help with this one. "I just know" (with no evidence), that's a childs way of thinking.

You may have to cut this family off completely. That might be very hard.

OBVIOUSLY I did not think or realize I was pretending?!  Come on!  That very question is stupid.  How could I believe that god's holy spirit has now filled me to overflowing, while I CLEARLY REALIZE I'm PRETENDING!?

In the moment, and for the next roughly 30 years, I honestly believed that what was happening was the holy spirit.

In fact, even now that my de-conversion is complete for about 6 months, I can still, at will, speak in tongues freely and easily.  THAT VERY FACT is, to me, even more evidence that speaking in tongues is not anything supernatural or holy spirit inspired.  Although, many christians would argue "god said he would never take his holy spirit from us....so that's why you can still speak in tongues".  That argument fails in my case, since there is one unforgivable sin:  denying the holy spirit, and I have done this audibly, consciously and clearly, and yet, I still am able. at any time, to pull up my parlor trick of speaking in tongues.  :-)

Thanks forrrrr the other points, though ;-)

[Minimalist]

I VERY MUCH want to help him to stop making stupid decisions (based on faith), and I believe this is an ideal opportunity.

The problem is that HE has to want to stop making stupid decisions.  All you can do is be there when and if he so decides.


Frankly, based on your 3 statements, he sounds like an asshole.

[brewer]

Hi and Welcome Woof to the forum.

Quick question: When you began speaking in tongues at such an early age did you know that you were pretending? Were you pretending?

You friend(s): As you said, you may not be able to convince them that they are being foolish. You can't change anyone unless they want to change themselves. (well, actually you can but it's an ugly process)

1) god is great but he allows his creations to suffer/die. That would only mean he is not great or does not care or there is no loving creator. Every time something bad happens to them I'd ask "Is this gods will?".
2) The bible could be made correlate to any time in existence. This time is not special. 
3) There may be no help with this one. "I just know" (with no evidence), that's a childs way of thinking.

You may have to cut this family off completely. That might be very hard.

OBVIOUSLY I did not think or realize I was pretending?!  Come on!  That very question is stupid.  How could I believe that god's holy spirit has now filled me to overflowing, while I CLEARLY REALIZE I'm PRETENDING!?

In the moment, and for the next roughly 30 years, I honestly believed that what was happening was the holy spirit.

In fact, even now that my de-conversion is complete for about 6 months, I can still, at will, speak in tongues freely and easily.  THAT VERY FACT is, to me, even more evidence that speaking in tongues is not anything supernatural or holy spirit inspired.  Although, many christians would argue "god said he would never take his holy spirit from us....so that's why you can still speak in tongues".  That argument fails in my case, since there is one unforgivable sin:  denying the holy spirit, and I have done this audibly, consciously and clearly, and yet, I still am able. at any time, to pull up my parlor trick of speaking in tongues.  :-)

Thanks forrrrr the other points, though ;-)

From my point it's not a stupid question. If you had not been exposed to others speaking in tongues, would you have spoken in tongues?

Or do you consider it stupid because you now realize it was pretending?

Do you consider your current "at will" speaking in tongues to be man made?

[riaaneloff]

The same first post was also made at The Thinking Atheist.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...pid1281876

Yup, it was me.  I would appreciate some help from SOMEONE!?  EVERYONE, but EVERYONE I know or have contact with are Christians.  (Duh, 25 years full-time ministry...48 years as a pastor's son). They are not gonna help.  I've been walking with these questions for months and am truly in a place where I want this buddy of mine to see the light.  The shitty thing is:  I'm drowning here, and instead of putting out a hand and saying:  chill dude, we gotcha...a lot of the guys of at that other forum are stepping on my face, stuffing me deeper under water with a "suck on that" just for fun!

Anyways...ya....some guys have given some great answers, and that's appreciated.

---

Um........ do we have a POE and I got sucked in?

Nope

---

OBVIOUSLY I did not think or realize I was pretending?!  Come on!  That very question is stupid.  How could I believe that god's holy spirit has now filled me to overflowing, while I CLEARLY REALIZE I'm PRETENDING!?

In the moment, and for the next roughly 30 years, I honestly believed that what was happening was the holy spirit.

In fact, even now that my de-conversion is complete for about 6 months, I can still, at will, speak in tongues freely and easily.  THAT VERY FACT is, to me, even more evidence that speaking in tongues is not anything supernatural or holy spirit inspired.  Although, many christians would argue "god said he would never take his holy spirit from us....so that's why you can still speak in tongues".  That argument fails in my case, since there is one unforgivable sin:  denying the holy spirit, and I have done this audibly, consciously and clearly, and yet, I still am able. at any time, to pull up my parlor trick of speaking in tongues.  :-)

Thanks forrrrr the other points, though ;-)

From my point it's not a stupid question. If you had not been exposed to others speaking in tongues, would you have spoken in tongues?

Or do you consider it stupid because you now realize it was pretending?

Do you consider your current "at will" speaking in tongues to be man made?

The argument, from scripture (if you believe scripture), for speaking in tongues is actually very sound, and makes it extremely simple and easy.  I do believe being exposed to others speaking in tongues makes it easier.  I do believe that even had I NOT been exposed to others speaking in tongues, I may still have spoken, as I have many testimonies of people who had read books about the baptism in the holy spirit, and, evn though being entirely isolated, they spoke in tongues right there on their own.

Again, you see...the argument FOR speaking in tongues, once laid out plainly (presupposing you BELIEVE scripture), is actually quite compelling and then simple to implement.

Getting back to why I thought the question is stupid:  no one in their right mind would consciously believe something supernatural is happening to them WHILE they consciously realize they are pretending it.  It makes no sense.  It's like being an atheist and "trying to believe", or forcing yourself to believe.  You cannot...since, the REASON you don't believe, is that there is no proper evidence.  Conversely, if I am convinced that something supernatural is taking place, how in hell can I realize I'm pretending.  THE MOMENT I realize I'm pretending, I automatically KNOW something supernatural isn't happening to me.  This is why I believe the question to be nonsensical.

My current speaking is FOR SURE man-made, no doubt - again, the question doesn't seem to make sense?  If I do not believe there is any supernatural being or any god or any holy spirit, who/what other than ME would be making the "speaking"?  I think most people don't/can't do this because of the awkwardness factor, BUT, since I never HAD the awkwardness factor, since I was in a group of people all doing it, and since I then believed it was supernatural, it was not THAT awkward anymore.

Later I was taught that it is something one should practise daily, and even something that we should be able to do at will whenever we need to or want to.  Thus, it became something that is not as awkward anymore.  I will not, and do not sit around speaking in tongues, as I now realize it is NOT a supernatural thing, but, when I say I am able to do it at will, I mean that I TESTED it after my de-conversion from christian to atheist.  Just to see what gives.  And, for sure, I can do it at will.

One thing that I DO find strange (but that is for another post...in fact, I would actually like to ask this to the guys on The Atheist Experience) is the fact that when I was a believer, we were taught that speaking in tongues "builds you up".  And, in a sense, it gave me energy, positivity, confidence (much like a power stance/position when you're delivering a speak or a presentation or a sales pitch) etc etc etc whenever I used it...and, after my de-conversion, when trying it several times, I still experience the same positive energy, confidence, even being moved to tears (I have no friggin IDEA why, but yes, that still does happen).  It may just be a programmed response, much like Pavlov's dogs, or like Neuro-Linguistic-Programming?  But that's why I'd like to ask that at some point to folks who understand the brain and consciousness better than I do  :-)

[Whateverist]

I get it. Obviously speaking in tongues is a natural phenomenon and something people obviously do learn to do. As you point out, while it may help when you are learning to do it to believe there is some sort of holy possession going on there, there is no need to believe it once you've learned to do it.

[Brian37]

To the OP, it would be best to go to the introduction section first, introduce yourself. Unfortunately atheist websites do get hit and run posters, and trolls and sock puppets from time to time. Lagit posters usually don't start off with a giant post like that as a first post. Just remember that for the next website you may join.

[riaaneloff]

To the OP, it would be best to go to the introduction section first, introduce yourself. Unfortunately atheist websites do  get hit and run posters, and trolls and sock puppets from time to time. Lagit posters usually don't start off with a giant post like that as a first post. Just remember that for the next website you may join.

Fair point, and my apologies.  I was a little "desperate" to try and get some help - as mentioned elsewhere - everyone in my circles are believers...I've been quite on my own and struggling a bit.  Didn't see a topic that made sense for this post and just jumped in to the introduction area :-)

I get what folks are saying about theist trolls.

Thanks for the responses thus far everyone.  Between this forum and the other one, I'm starting to feel my way into a conversation with my friend that may be fruitful, BUT, I am also becoming more and more aware that he may need to hit rock bottom, and I'll have to just deal with watching that, until he asks for advice.

[brewer]

The same first post was also made at The Thinking Atheist.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...pid1281876

Yup, it was me.  I would appreciate some help from SOMEONE!?  EVERYONE, but EVERYONE I know or have contact with are Christians.  (Duh, 25 years full-time ministry...48 years as a pastor's son). They are not gonna help.  I've been walking with these questions for months and am truly in a place where I want this buddy of mine to see the light.  The shitty thing is:  I'm drowning here, and instead of putting out a hand and saying:  chill dude, we gotcha...a lot of the guys of at that other forum are stepping on my face, stuffing me deeper under water with a "suck on that" just for fun!

Anyways...ya....some guys have given some great answers, and that's appreciated.

---

Um........ do we have a POE and I got sucked in?

Nope

---

From my point it's not a stupid question. If you had not been exposed to others speaking in tongues, would you have spoken in tongues?

Or do you consider it stupid because you now realize it was pretending?

Do you consider your current "at will" speaking in tongues to be man made?

The argument, from scripture (if you believe scripture), for speaking in tongues is actually very sound, and makes it extremely simple and easy.  I do believe being exposed to others speaking in tongues makes it easier.  I do believe that even had I NOT been exposed to others speaking in tongues, I may still have spoken, as I have many testimonies of people who had read books about the baptism in the holy spirit, and, evn though being entirely isolated, they spoke in tongues right there on their own.

Again, you see...the argument FOR speaking in tongues, once laid out plainly (presupposing you BELIEVE scripture), is actually quite compelling and then simple to implement.

Getting back to why I thought the question is stupid:  no one in their right mind would consciously believe something supernatural is happening to them WHILE they consciously realize they are pretending it.  It makes no sense.  It's like being an atheist and "trying to believe", or forcing yourself to believe.  You cannot...since, the REASON you don't believe, is that there is no proper evidence.  Conversely, if I am convinced that something supernatural is taking place, how in hell can I realize I'm pretending.  THE MOMENT I realize I'm pretending, I automatically KNOW something supernatural isn't happening to me.  This is why I believe the question to be nonsensical.

My current speaking is FOR SURE man-made, no doubt - again, the question doesn't seem to make sense?  If I do not believe there is any supernatural being or any god or any holy spirit, who/what other than ME would be making the "speaking"?  I think most people don't/can't do this because of the awkwardness factor, BUT, since I never HAD the awkwardness factor, since I was in a group of people all doing it, and since I then believed it was supernatural, it was not THAT awkward anymore.

Later I was taught that it is something one should practise daily, and even something that we should be able to do at will whenever we need to or want to.  Thus, it became something that is not as awkward anymore.  I will not, and do not sit around speaking in tongues, as I now realize it is NOT a supernatural thing, but, when I say I am able to do it at will, I mean that I TESTED it after my de-conversion from christian to atheist.  Just to see what gives.  And, for sure, I can do it at will.

One thing that I DO find strange (but that is for another post...in fact, I would actually like to ask this to the guys on The Atheist Experience) is the fact that when I was a believer, we were taught that speaking in tongues "builds you up".  And, in a sense, it gave me energy, positivity, confidence (much like a power stance/position when you're delivering a speak or a presentation or a sales pitch) etc etc etc whenever I used it...and, after my de-conversion, when trying it several times, I still experience the same positive energy, confidence, even being moved to tears (I have no friggin IDEA why, but yes, that still does happen).  It may just be a programmed response, much like Pavlov's dogs, or like Neuro-Linguistic-Programming?  But that's why I'd like to ask that at some point to folks who understand the brain and consciousness better than I do  :-)

If we're going to get into this then maybe the introduction thread is not the right place. I don't place to much stock in testimony but would be willing to listen. 

Pretending may not have been the best choice of words. However there are all kinds of things people will do to fit in and be accepted, especially when pressured, that they know is not authentic. That was the point of my question. We've discussed here previously (in the forum, not this post) the effect the religious have on children. 

@Whats: Sorry, don't see this as a natural phenomenon (an observable event which is not man-made), unless you're talking about a herd thing. You'll need to educate me.

[Astreja]

1) God is so great, so amazing, so holy, that all the pain in the world (babies dying of cancer, entire civilizations wiped out by Israel, tsunamis killing thousands of people) is so minuscule in comparison to what he SHOULD be doing to us for being sinful, that my friend does not regard it as immoral/wrong/bad. He believes that god should actually just wipe us from the universe...BUT, god is being gracious, and only allowing some small pain.

Anyone who would make such a ghastly and immoral excuse for a god would think nothing of making excuses for himself.  My advice to you is to avoid being alone with such people, avoid going into any sort of business relationship with them, and never turn your back on them.  They are not to be trusted.

[ignoramus]

OP. Hi. Welcome from Au. Heathen Central.

He sounds too far gone down the rabbit hole. He's too invested now.

As Jor said, don't waste time working against the grain.

I'd just quietly fuck with his mind in an attempt to try to short circuit something...

EG: I'd say things like "What would it take to get you to change?"

Ask him if he thinks he is capable of taking responsibility for his own actions, instead of using God as the scapegoat for ruining his and everyone else's life.
Ask him about the rich Baptist ministers and why God is happy for them to live the rich lifestyle?

Ask him if he thinks other's speak to false Gods except him?
Ask him how he can prove to you that the voices and feelings he has aren't just his and not God's? By what mechanism does he differentiate?
He must be able to because he also has personal hunches of his own.

Lastly, Tell him God said "Everything in moderation!" Including God! lol!

Good luck man...

May Zeus be with you...