Potter to the clay

[Greatest I am]

In my apologetic class we are reading te book crazy love by francis chan. It sucks ass. But tommorow we are gonna discuss it. Now chan ususes the passage in the bible which says it is absurd for clay to tell the potter how to shape it. He compares this to our relationship with god saying we have no right to question him an he is free to do as he pleases. Now lets just suppose for a minute this god does exist, doea he truly have the right to treat humans as he sees fit? In my opnion i dont think so. Just because human are capable of feeling and thinking-something clay lacks. However, i havent thought about this in depth. So what are your opnions? Would a divine creator have the authority to do whatever he wanted with his creation? Is it absurd for a creation to question their maker? Again im not saying i believe in a creator i just know this discussion will come up and wanted to see the forums opinion. Thanks.

If God creates a talking pot with a hole in it and bitches and complains about it and threatens to send it to eternal torture for leaking, then yes, I would say that the pot is well within it's rights to ask it's creator why he created it with a hole in the first place if he did not want that hole there.

Regards
DL

[salty]

So, Salty, might makes right?

I think salty's thing is god knows whats best no matter what we think so WHATEVER he says is inherently right. Am i right?

very right. he can see all paths, you think it's right, but it could be terribly wrong. I trust God.

[frankiej]

Why do you trust him? How has he earned your trust?

He seems hateful... I wouldn't trust him. I would trust the News of the World more than him. Oh wait, they don't exist... Oh shit, neither does he.

[The Grand Nudger]

Absolutely speechless Salty. I guess I'll just never be convinced of the basic goodness of something like xenocide. Agree to disagree.

[salty]

Why do you trust him? How has he earned your trust?

He seems hateful... I wouldn't trust him. I would trust the News of the World more than him. Oh wait, they don't exist... Oh shit, neither does he.

Why do you trust people you know? Don't they need to prove they are trustworthy? Even though many people would rather give coincidence of events to chance I give the credit straight to God. I've known him for 12 years now and he's never let me down, he's showed up in the oddest ways to confirm that he is responsible for providing for me. By the way, i don't credit every single thing to God unless something meaningful (a chance to learn or a chance to witness) occurs from it.

One experience.
When I was attending church in high school someone told me about a band called East West and I enjoyed their music for a few years. Upon arriving at college I felt the Lord pressing me to start a step team because I was becoming recluse and he wanted me to make friends. At that time it was hard for me to handle being around people who believed 24/7 all they wanted to talk about was God and I wanted to talk about other things sometimes. Whatever the situation I knew I couldn't do it alone and I didn't know anyone at my school and I wasn't really sure if God was talking to me. I gave him a test to see if it really was his will. "If this is what you want I need someone who already knows what I'm trying to do, they must have skill and they will come to me, I won't find them. Amen." A while after that prayer one of the few people I met in the dining commons asked me to go to a concert. "I don't go to concerts, I only like a few bands right now and they're hard to find." My friend said, "Oh, have you heard of East West, they're playing?" -- "yeah, I love their music, I'll go!" So we all hopped into a van and went to the concert. I forgot all about the prayer until right in front of me while I was watching the concert a girl started stepping. She told me that she wished someone would start a team and that she would love to learn more as she had only been taught a little. I took her outside to test her, she learned fast. I was in shock so I kept pausing for a break and she asked me what was wrong. I explained the situation and she just smiled. "Now you have to do it," she said. The Lord fulfilled my request effortlessly, using a method I would never suspect. I have literally been to about four concerts in my life, he knows that I don't like being crowded and I won't pay unless its someone I really enjoy. This is just one situation, think of what 12 years of situations where the Lord shows me he knows all about me and can provide for all my needs. Just think of how dedicated you would be under that kind of confirmation.

I trust him with my life and will lay it down for whatever purpose he has. I just want to see him and tell him "thank you" for the changes he has made in me.

---

Absolutely speechless Salty. I guess I'll just never be convinced of the basic goodness of something like xenocide. Agree to disagree.

Yes rhythm, let's agree to disagree.

[Ace Otana]

Humans are ritualistic by nature, so it's no surprise to see so many apply the every day mundane and monumental events to some kind of supernatural higher power.
That's the delusion. You're living in a fantasy world, Salty.

[frankiej]

Why do you trust people you know? Don't they need to prove they are trustworthy? Even though many people would rather give coincidence of events to chance I give the credit straight to God.

Yes, i do. how can you possibly say it is the same. They are real, observable. God is not.

And How can you give God credit for anything without knowing it was him?
That surely isn't even fair.

The fact that God has never shown himself to you should be reason enough NOT to trust him.

[salty]

As we know, this whole argument comes down to belief as I feel all the major events in my life point to God and you believe it points to chance.

When I think about it, if I was God, I wouldn't just show up right in front of someone, in person, because my power and presence would simply force them to believe in me. They would have undeniable proof and then they would lean on me showing up in person everytime they have a question or they're going through something. They would "feel" like they weren't connected to me unless they could see me in all my splendor, therfore their faith would be based on sight, which is hardly faith at all...They would then probably create their own notion of what it means to be "saved" by running around and asking everyone, "Have you SEEN God? No..no...I mean have you SEEN him in person?" and then people would think I was showing favoritism by appearing to some in person and not appearing to others. Then my people would be scattered with all these crazy notions of what it means to know me and the lost who can be easily overcome would fall in line and pray night and day to SEE me, just to PROOVE they are mine, instead of praying to learn how to please me by helping and loving others.

Amazing, these things happen even without God appearing in person, people are confused, they're burned, they're lost, they're hurt, they're angry, they're scared, they're hated, they're depressed and they all want to demand answers from a higher power, a power that is all knowing, fully holy and loving and compassionate. They're shaking their fists at him, even begging him to present himself to succumb to their desires of proof because if he LOVED them he would do whatever they wanted. These people have no notion of humilty or understanding. They are asking a completely holy God to bow to their whims, instead of taking a moment to think, "God is so above me, so powerful and pure, I'm not worthy of knowing him, but I hope one day he will see me as worthy." When people humble themselves like this, and feel that it would be an honor to know and be around a God of love and power, then he comes bursting into their lives, showing up in every situation, making himself known because the humble are always exalted. It's the proud that miss the point.

If I was God. I would not appear in person, I may send angels here and there, but I would want my people to have faith in me without knowing for sure by touch, taste, sight, scent or sound that I am real. Instead I would place myself in their lives and let them discover how I have been there the whole time and will continue to be there, and to live within them. If I was God, I would let those who have ears, hear me when I speak, and those that have pride to be lost because they want me to lower myself to their human terms, but the universe was created on my holy terms.

The Kingdom of Heaven will only be filled with people who realize that everything was created on God's terms, that all things good and evil are laid bare before God. He knows of all the injustice that has happened and he will repay all evil to the evil and pardon all sinners who claim the righteousness of Jesus through faith. God is aware of what you feel you need to believe in him, but even moreso aware of the real excuses behind your lack of faith, it's usually the same sin that Lucifer struggled with: obedience.

[KichigaiNeko]

What you don't realise is that (from YOUR perspective) You ARE god....

so WTF are you going to do now??

[The Grand Nudger]

And yet strangely your entire belief system is based exactly upon people who claim to have seen god. Claim to have witnessed his miracles. This was their entire argument for belief. We saw it, we touched him. It was very important to them that these things physically happened, and that there was proof that they did. I don't understand why a visit from god is such an off bounds request, and obviously neither did the writers of the NT.