Soul - your views on it?

[Autumnlicious]

So you can't address the topic you created DD? Ok.

Hi WC. I'm not really arguing a POV, but reflecting it. Albeit badly
Everything comes from God.
God put spirit in us. It is the same as God's spirit.
Yeah they were two separate statements.
I think only humans have spirits.
God could have done anything.
If we all have a spirit that is like God, that doesn't make us God. We are separate persons.
(hope that helped)

[fr0d0]

Cheers WC

God put spirit in us. It is the same as God's spirit.

1. How? Did he split himself or create it from nothing?
From nothing
2. If its the same entity/material as God what is the distinction?
Same substance, different person, like you and I
3. Why did god think it clever to make me so weak that all I [we] can do with it is cling to existence? Why can't I [we] do simple things with it, not tremendous tasks (i.e create a universe) but heal sicknesses with "my [our] spirit"? Why was I given so much just created to be so powerless? This is even the case in other fictional works like LoTR for example. Are we the subject of some divine prank? An artist who deliberately draws derpy characters for his own amusement?
You are limited by your inhibitions. If you had the faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain.
4. If man's spirit was created, whereas god's always existed before space-time, begotten not created or whatever, why do so many Christians argue its indestructible as well? Logically, they [we're] were created and therefore can be destroyed just as easily right?
'We' (our spirits) are immoratal. Time> just not >Time>

I think only humans have spirits.

What is the difference between a man's spirit and/or soul and god's spirit and/or soul? Soul or spirit, I need to know your definitions because otherwise they're both overused meaningless terms.
They're the same, only different persons. God gets to have three persons... father and son as well as spirit.

God could have done anything.

Now I'm more perplexed than before. >.< Just what is your position in this debate Frodo? Maybe I'm not understanding you, or you're not clarifying your argument concisely for me?
Well God did it this way... he could have done it any way he wanted. You ask why he did it this way.. he did and that's that. It's too massive a subject to try to re-organise a universe and come up with a working model. I don't really care for that.. I'm happy to work with what we've got. I can't see how it could be better myself... sure we have pain and sufferring... but how do you propose a working system without those things? I can't see how.

Are you arguing that this god concept could have done it all naturally? You do realise the obvious implication of stating this? It concludes there are no souls, only God is truly "real". Its not quite a 'slippery slope' but you have to admit its basically you conceding and thus killing the discussion before its started.
Well God makes the laws of physics... so natural is what he decides it is. If you think that the laws of nature follow logic... then they could be no different could they?? That's what I mean by the complexity of designing it any other way.
Natural doesn't rule out souls, because we're not talking supernatural yet.

If we all have a spirit that is like God, that doesn't make us God. We are separate persons.

Yes but then we're in danger of going down the 'we're living-manifestations of this deity's schizophrenia' route again by asserting this. You haven't established the difference between god's spirits' ontology and a humans' immaterial essence or whatever. That's the stumbling block of theodicy, it can't discern god's spirit [matter] from anyone's else's, including Satan's.
]I think you iognored the person bit. Are we schitsophrenic humans because we're subdivided into persons? No. That's not how schizophrenia works: It has to be a subdivision of one person. These are separate persons.

It also raises problematic issues on the matter in that if we're all god, and he judges us (him) then he is essentially condemning himself to hell which would cause a lot of controversy among your peers. Its like arguing that god was a mindless entity before time that at some point or other "gained sentience", and he fathoms he is all that is "real" in the abyss that surrounds him, everything else is merely his imagination. He's utterly alone in a void therefore now is on the verge of going completely insane.
We decide the fate of our spirit. It's potential in us. If we decide that being God-like is what we want... then we become like him. Man with God's spirit in us. At death that is perfected in that we become all spirit. A defiant spirit carries on until eventually it accepts the unavoidable truth, and becomes like God too.

If the writers of the Bible weren't asshats they could have played up god to be the most tragic and lonely figure of all time, one worthy of empathy and sympathy
Well there you go re-inventing the perfect model, and making it break.

[Welsh cake]

From nothing

When?

Same substance, different person, like you and I

He made us his equals? But we're subject to time and space, bound to the laws of physics, you assert god is inside and outside space-time do you not? We're not gods correct? God can destroy us if he wanted yes?

You are limited by your inhibitions. If you had the faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain.

You know frodo, there was a time when I used to believe just that and couldn't figure out for the life of me why I was failing time and time again to do the *simplest* of tasks. I've the hindsight to know now why faith, unlike knowledge, fails utterly is because, its believing in whatever you want to without a good reason to.

'We' (our spirits) are immoratal. Time> just not >Time>

Sorry? So you're saying souls can die if given enough time?

They're the same, only different persons. God gets to have three persons... father and son as well as spirit.

Okay why then is god exerting his authority over us if we're equals? And why is my spirit only one (if not corrupted, tainted or damaged as some theists buy into) when god has three? Why can't I have four? What about Dual brain theory and other studies that show interesting brain conditions where one side of a person can identify themselves as an atheist, and the other a theist?

Well God did it this way... he could have done it any way he wanted. You ask why he did it this way.. he did and that's that. It's too massive a subject to try to re-organise a universe and come up with a working model. I don't really care for that.. I'm happy to work with what we've got. I can't see how it could be better myself... sure we have pain and sufferring... but how do you propose a working system without those things? I can't see how.

With the current demonstrable universe we've already got? @_@ Because there's no proof at all of the existence of souls, ghosts, demons or other supernatural entities whatsoever?

Well God makes the laws of physics... so natural is what he decides it is. If you think that the laws of nature follow logic... then they could be no different could they?? That's what I mean by the complexity of designing it any other way.
Natural doesn't rule out souls, because we're not talking supernatural yet.

Well this is something beyond our expertise because its ultimately, or at least currently, unknowable. What are the square-bounds of "natural" exactly? Until we know its limits, 'supernatural' is a meaningless term. Its like me saying: Supernatural doesn't rule out souls, because we're not talking "hypernatural" yet...

Yeah, "hypernatural > supernatural", I went there. ^_^

I think you ignored the person bit. Are we schitsophrenic humans because we're subdivided into persons?

Actually I was talking about god splitting himself up, as some theists believe this, since you acknowledged you do not, I see no reason to address this point any further.

We decide the fate of our spirit.

Cool. Okay, let's say your god is real for sake of argument. I died and put that statement to the test. So I finally met the big bad God (for the first time). What could I say? Let's see, for starters: I hate this place, this prison, this reality and I can't stand it any longer. I don't like your creation at all. I don't like the fact you're setting down on the table the choices I can and cannot make, thereby hindering, no suffocating my freewill. You've been manipulating my life from the day I was born; you dragged me into existence so I could experience this whole arbitrary good vs. evil nonsense; not to mention predestining the choices I made and didn't make throughout my entire life which has lead me up to this conversation we're having now.

I want out. Yep. I wish no ill will on you, or your idiot followers. I'm leaving your "Seahaven". There's probably nothing out there for me, just an infinite abyss. Its absolute zero out there, so I'll probably cease to exist, maybe pass into oblivion, but it sure beats staying in the slum area of "Seahaven" aka Hell for eternity; and for the first time ever - I've actually made my own choice.

Well, Good morning! And in case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBu9l_EKWVs

But of course not! Your god concept doesn't want my liberation or anyone else's, Hell no!
Does he want to send me and other people who reject him to hell instead? Hell yes!

A defiant spirit carries on until eventually it accepts the unavoidable truth, and becomes like God too.

My response above says no. I don't worship anyone, especially not the Biblical god. I'd rather die than be forced under his subjugation. I am a man, not a sheep. I belong to no one.

Well there you go re-inventing the perfect model, and making it break.

Yeah I forgot, Christians actually like their dickhead god concept, as crazy as that sounds. You can have him.


Edit: LOL - Bible adverts came up on the YouTube video I put up >:C

[fr0d0]

When?

Ignored

He made us his equals? But we're subject to time and space, bound to the laws of physics

Yeah - do you no get that concept??

you assert god is inside and outside space-time do you not? We're not gods correct? God can destroy us if he wanted yes?

Different person. Yeah.

You know frodo, there was a time when I used to believe just that and couldn't figure out for the life of me why I was failing time and time again to do the *simplest* of tasks. I've the hindsight to know now why faith, unlike knowledge, fails utterly is because, its believing in whatever you want to without a good reason to.

Youe faith was stupid then. Don't judge everyone by yourself k?

Sorry? So you're saying souls can die if given enough time?

Eh? Spirit's never die.

Okay why then is god exerting his authority over us if we're equals?

Are you retarded? I said different persons.

And why is my spirit only one (if not corrupted, tainted or damaged as some theists buy into) when god has three? ....lalalalala.

Yeah [insert another WC fanatasy here].

Moving on...

With the current demonstrable universe we've already got? @_@ Because there's no proof at all of the existence of souls, ghosts, demons or other supernatural entities whatsoever?

Being a twat is being a twat, it has to be said.

Well this is something beyond our expertise because its ultimately, or at least currently, unknowable.

Unknowable objectively einstien. Some people have, like, the ability to think.

What are the square-bounds of "natural" exactly? Until we know its limits, 'supernatural' is a meaningless term. Its like me saying: Supernatural doesn't rule out souls, because we're not talking "hypernatural" yet...

We define it as something we're sure doesn't fit the natural. We can know that for some things, if we allow ourselves to think. All those inbetween things are up for grabs. I'm not prepared to speculate about them. You apparently are.

Actually I was talking about god splitting himself up, as some theists believe this, since you acknowledged you do not, I see no reason to address this point any further.

Me neither. It was crazy enough the first time.

let's say your god is real for sake of argument. I died and put that statement to the test. So I finally met the big bad God (for the first time). What could I say? Let's see, for starters: I hate this place, this prison, this reality and I can't stand it any longer. I don't like your creation at all. I don't like the fact you're setting down on the table the choices I can and cannot make, thereby hindering, no suffocating my freewill. You've been manipulating my life from the day I was born; you dragged me into existence so I could experience this whole arbitrary good vs. evil nonsense; not to mention predestining the choices I made and didn't make throughout my entire life which has lead me up to this conversation we're having now.

So you're still in denial of the inevitable. k.

I want out. Yep. I wish no ill will on you, or your idiot followers. I'm leaving your "Seahaven". There's probably nothing out there for me, just an infinite abyss. Its absolute zero out there, so I'll probably cease to exist, maybe pass into oblivion, but it sure beats staying in the slum area of "Seahaven" aka Hell for eternity; and for the first time ever - I've actually made my own choice.

Correction... you're always making your own choices.... you can carry on being a jerk as long as you like. God has infinity for utter stupidity to work out the plan. So it's all good

But of course not! Your god concept doesn't want my liberation or anyone else's, Hell no!

Erm... r-iiii-ght.

Does he want to send me and other people who reject him to hell instead? Hell yes!

No dildo it's you who would choose pain instead of pleasure... but it's your choice, and God respects that.

My response above says no. I don't worship anyone, especially not the Biblical god. I'd rather die than be forced under his subjugation. I am a
man, not a sheep. I belong to no one.

Nose to spite the face kinda think. It's ok... I get it!

[ThomM]

[quote='Diamond-Deist' pid='173048' dateline='1315081746']
Does it exist or not exist and if it does what do you think it is?


As a musician - "souL" is normally a word associated with a type of music or musical performance done with great emotion

A cook will describe "soul" as a type of food preparation indicative of parts of the Southern USA

A "Soul" is also a fantasy part of the fairy tales of religions

Does James Bond exist? - YUP - as a fictional character
What James Bond ever a real person - NO

[Welsh cake]

Ignored

What do you mean ignored? It was a legitimate question. At what point is a soul created from nothing? =/

Yeah - do you no get that concept??

Right, we're back to square one: What is the distinction between god's spirit/soul and a human's spirit/soul, and we're not talking about the entities themselves. I'm asking for ontology for the incorporeal/immaterial essence of a person and for a god. If you think a soul is synonymous for a person's spirituality/self/ego please say.

Different person. Yeah.

Yes but that's my point. We're not equals. Why did god deliberately make us (soul/spirit/self) so uselessly weak? And it's not because of a lack of faith. ^^ I believed in myself and everything started to fall apart around me. Faith isn't what drives your god/creator forward to create universes and cosmoses from nothing. According to your theology he doesn't believe in any higher beings than himself that could conceivably exist, he opens declares there are no other gods, obviously.

Youe faith was stupid then. Don't judge everyone by yourself k?

I learned those the hard way, but what pray tell do those non sequitur statements have anything to do with my response?

Eh? Spirit's never die.

You answered "yeah" a moment ago to my earlier question that if God wanted to destroy us, he could. Clearly the soul is not immortal then. It has a long life expectancy, but even that can't last *forever* if this creator wills it dead or tires of sustaining it.

Are you retarded? I said different persons.

Another person =/= Higher being. You needed to be more specific.

Correction... you're always making your own choices.... you can carry on being a jerk as long as you like. God has infinity for utter stupidity to work out the plan. So it's all good

Then I get to make my second choice all on my own, without the interference or approval of a divine prankster - Never to return.

No dildo it's you who would choose pain instead of pleasure... but it's your choice, and God respects that.

Frodo, if God's followers and their behaviour, are anything to go by with regards to obtaining a reflection of his mind, integrity and thoughts, I really don't want to exist with him, nor anyone else who thinks I'm a "retarded twat". I'd rather be happy being alone as I pass into the void of non-existence.

Nose to spite the face kinda think. It's ok... I get it!

I'll always be indifferent at the very least to this creator-thing, there is no chemistry, devotion or affection. Fuck it, look frodo, if he's real, there's not even a relationship here. If I meet ANY deity after I die I knew it never cared about me enough to let me know it existed when I was alive, going through all the dark times in fear and in doubt.

I'm an agnostic atheist with respects to knowing whether or not there's really a creator force/deity out there outside of the scope of practical knowledge. But right now, I do know for a fact no such sentient all-powerful entity gives a shit about me, my family, or any of our lives.

[fr0d0]

What do you mean ignored? It was a legitimate question. At what point is a soul created from nothing? =/

I have no idea what you're asking, sorry. Do you mean when we're born? Our inherrant nature/ God created? What?

Yeah - do you no get that concept??

Right, we're back to square one: What is the distinction between god's spirit/soul and a human's spirit/soul, and we're not talking about the entities themselves. I'm asking for ontology for the incorporeal/immaterial essence of a person and for a god. If you think a soul is synonymous for a person's spirituality/self/ego please say.

You seem to want to make this 'god substance' impersonal - which takes it out of the subject area and into speculative philosophy.
Like I tried to say: we are humans made up of cells that are classifiably human. Within that classification we are also separate persons.
Gods spirit is a person, and we have the potential to enable that spirit within ourselves. Our soul, to restrict the meaning, is our mortally bound self.
Hope that helps.

Different person. Yeah.

Yes but that's my point. We're not equals. Why did god deliberately make us (soul/spirit/self) so uselessly weak? And it's not because of a lack of faith.

He didn't make us weak in that sense. We are as strong as our faith.

^^ I believed in myself and everything started to fall apart around me. Faith isn't what drives your god/creator forward to create universes and cosmoses from nothing. According to your theology he doesn't believe in any higher beings than himself that could conceivably exist, he opens declares there are no other gods, obviously.

1. Your faith weakened
2. Correct: God came first - not faith in him.
3. He is prior to everything. He doesn't have to believe that, he just is.
4. He openly declares that there ARE other gods and that you should worship none but him.

Your faith was stupid then. Don't judge everyone by yourself k?

I learned those the hard way, but what pray tell do those non sequitur statements have anything to do with my response?

You totally misunderstood what faith is. Your faith was baseless: given the statement you provided.

Eh? Spirit's never die.

You answered "yeah" a moment ago to my earlier question that if God wanted to destroy us, he could. Clearly the soul is not immortal then.

You thought by 'us' I was referring to our immortal spirit? Then you thought wrong.

Are you retarded? I said different persons.

Another person =/= Higher being. You needed to be more specific.

You are a person. The queen is a person. Both don't possess the same authority unfortunately. Such things are possible with personhood.

Correction... you're always making your own choices.... you can carry on being a jerk as long as you like. God has infinity for utter stupidity to work out the plan. So it's all good

Then I get to make my second choice all on my own, without the interference or approval of a divine prankster - Never to return.

All things shall come to him. Perfection attracts. You don't get to be an idiot forever.

No dildo it's you who would choose pain instead of pleasure... but it's your choice, and God respects that.

Frodo, if God's followers and their behaviour, are anything to go by with regards to obtaining a reflection of his mind, integrity and thoughts, I really don't want to exist with him, nor anyone else who thinks I'm a "retarded twat". I'd rather be happy being alone as I pass into the void of non-existence.

You're letting your reasoning be coloured by something other than the subject in hand. I can think you're being a jerk. In truth you could be being a jerk. That doesn't get you out of the consequences of being a jerk.

Nose to spite the face kinda thing. It's ok... I get it!

I'll always be indifferent at the very least to this creator-thing, there is no chemistry, devotion or affection. Fuck it, look frodo, if he's real, there's not even a relationship here. If I meet ANY deity after I die I knew it never cared about me enough to let me know it existed when I was alive, going through all the dark times in fear and in doubt.

He's doing his bit. You, on the other hand, are wallowing in the mud.

right now, I do know for a fact no such sentient all-powerful entity gives a shit about me, my family, or any of our lives.

How is that? How can you say you know? Is it because your life is not how it would be if he existed? Please explain.

[Welsh cake]

I have no idea what you're asking, sorry. Do you mean when we're born? Our inherrant nature/ God created? What?

At what point was "my soul" created from nothing?

He didn't make us weak in that sense. We are as strong as our faith.

I don't have faith in anything, so by your reckoning, I'm not just merely impotent, but I have absolutely no power, influence or effect over anything. If the body needs the soul then it stands to reason I shouldn't be alive right now, let alone able to type up this response to you.

1. Your faith weakened

I abandoned the silly notion of it altogether Frodo.

4. He openly declares that there ARE other gods and that you should worship none but him.

So he's god of the gods? Wow, I feel even more distanced from him than before, and even I didn't think that was possible. Hope he and the 'god of this world' when they next hang out don't have too much fun screwing with the minds of men and hiding the truth from them.

All things shall come to him.

Yeah, yeah. All knees shall bow and every arse shall fart. I've heard this Universalistic drivel a million times before Frodo and time has not sweetened it, it's become quite stale. This sermon is nothing more than a bell that's lost its clapper.

Perfection attracts.

I find it alien and horrifying. Perfection repels. What on earth does a creator god want or need with trivial insignificant little me anyway? Nothing.

You don't get to be an idiot forever.

True, if there is no soul that survives biological death I should pass into oblivion anywhere between now and the next sixty years or so. Entertaining notions as to whether there ever was a creator who is responsible for everything will thankfully be extinguished, along with the rest of my nightmares as my consciousness ceases to be.

If the soul exists and the repugnant tyrant god of the Bible is real and what you said about us determining the ultimate fate of our own spirits is true then, I'll no longer be an atheist but become a misotheist. That Biblical supernatural monster has never been worthy of adoration or respect in any context. Sadly, I'll develop endless self-loathing as I realise I came about or was conceived in some way because of this colossal beast's dark designs. It would be no different from a normal good-hearted individual hating reality and/or committing suicide when he discovers Cthulhu exists.

You're letting your reasoning be coloured by something other than the subject in hand. I can think you're being a jerk. In truth you could be being a jerk.

Oh dear, then you've invested way too much in this god concept to appreciate that others may not find it as 'irresistible' and 'wondrous' as you do.

That doesn't get you out of the consequences of being a jerk.

What consequences will I face for not loving your god concept? Is it Hell-threat-time already frodo?

He's doing his bit. You, on the other hand, are wallowing in the mud.

He doesn't even exist as far as I'm aware. >.>

How is that? How can you say you know? Is it because your life is not how it would be if he existed? Please explain.

Where the hell do I start?

Well, the only reason why I'm responding right this second now is because I'm on the sick, and I need the distraction. I'm awaiting an operation for my stupid useless body that could take weeks/months to recover from. My less than sympathetic employer is threatening to review my circumstance so see whether or not I've a future with them. This adds to the stress and heartache.
Some of my family are dead. Cancer claimed most but a few died horribly from accidents. Ones closest to me are going through difficult times with no end in sight to their troubles (except for an unlikely lottery win, or a far more probable death), the strain threatens to push them into a nervous breakdown. My father has lost over a third of his heart from several heart attacks, he's slowly dying from a multitude of illnesses that claimed his father - he has another ten years if we're lucky, although he can't retire because we need the money to keep the roof over our heads.
There are times when my mother, a devout theist wishes she didn't have children because my sisters are have mental illnesses and cannot cope with life in general. The majority of my relatives are locked in turmoil as they quarrel over past events and transgressions. At best they treat each other with apathy without sucking the rest of us into their disputes. Fucking overzealous neighbours are conspiring to hurt and/or harm us in almost every conceivable way that is in within their power and thwart our plans and hopes for the future to build a new home, they delight whenever new problems hit us or whenever one of us gets taken to hospital.

And these problems are just ours - there are countless dysfunctional families out there who've no doubt got it MUCH worse. I've lived long enough to witness countless horrors, atrocities and tragedies that have happened all over the world and are still occurring right now.

Take a hint: With absolute certainty I can say no creator gives a flying fuck about my family or I.

I could NEVER reconcile myself or forfeit what little dignity/self-respect I've retained, sacrifice my compassion for my fellow man, or surrender the humanity salvaged after from those who abused my trust, and then worship some deity.

What don't you understand about that?

[fr0d0]

At what point was "my soul" created from nothing?

You were born with it. Where, in my belief system, do you get that it was created from nothing?

He didn't make us weak in that sense. We are as strong as our faith.

I don't have faith in anything, so by your reckoning, I'm not just merely impotent, but I have absolutely no power, influence or effect over anything.

We aren't talking about anything. Just faith in God.
But to answer your secular questions...
Do people with more faith in themselves have and measure of success greater than those who have no faith in their abilities?
Are people who have faith in others misguided always?

If the body needs the soul then it stands to reason I shouldn't be alive right now, let alone able to type up this response to you.

You have a soul. it's part of you. You couldn't remove it. No one lacks it.

1. Your faith weakened

I abandoned the silly notion of it altogether Frodo.

After it weakened. Sure. I know.

4. He openly declares that there ARE other gods and that you should worship none but him.

So he's god of the gods?

Yep. King of kings and Lord of lords. The other gods are bad guys.

All things shall come to him.

Yeah, yeah. All knees shall bow and every arse shall fart.

Good one

Perfection attracts.

I find it alien and horrifying. Perfection repels. What on earth does a creator god want or need with trivial insignificant little me anyway? Nothing.

Again.. God doesn't need you, you need him. The toddler resents correction but it's for it's own good.

That doesn't get you out of the consequences of being a jerk.

What consequences will I face for not loving your god concept? Is it Hell-threat-time already frodo?

Live contrary to the laws of nature and you suffer the consequences immediately. Hell is just reward for what you do. Stop doing it to yourself and you get heaven.

How is that? How can you say you know? Is it because your life is not how it would be if he existed? Please explain.

Where the hell do I start?

Well, the only reason why I'm responding right this second now is because I'm on the sick, and I need the distraction. I'm awaiting an operation for my stupid useless body that could take weeks/months to recover from. My less than sympathetic employer is threatening to review my circumstance so see whether or not I've a future with them. This adds to the stress and heartache.

Capability. What evil that is. But then companies have to make profits. Too much profit in my opinion. If they had Christ led ideals they would value the person more than the cash: like what happenned with companies like Bourneville in the past.

A huge variety of ailments are part of this sometimes ugly reality. It's what we have and we live with it/ make the most of it.

Some of my family are dead. Cancer claimed most but a few died horribly from accidents. Ones closest to me are going through difficult times with no end in sight to their troubles (except for an unlikely lottery win, or a far more probable death), the strain threatens to push them into a nervous breakdown. My father has lost over a third of his heart from several heart attacks, he's slowly dying from a multitude of illnesses that claimed his father - he has another ten years if we're lucky, although he can't retire because we need the money to keep the roof over our heads.
There are times when my mother, a devout theist wishes she didn't have children because my sisters are have mental illnesses and cannot cope with life in general. The majority of my relatives are locked in turmoil as they quarrel over past events and transgressions. At best they treat each other with apathy without sucking the rest of us into their disputes. Fucking overzealous neighbours are conspiring to hurt and/or harm us in almost every conceivable way that is in within their power and thwart our plans and hopes for the future to build a new home, they delight whenever new problems hit us or whenever one of us gets taken to hospital.

People being nasty or miguided. This shit happens. I'm a very easy going person IRL. Neighbours start off bullish with me, but they calm down when they realise that I'll always consider them and take on their POV. I'm hopeless at it, but generosity breeds generosity. It's all basic phychology, and truth.

And these problems are just ours - there are countless dysfunctional families out there who've no doubt got it MUCH worse. I've lived long enough to witness countless horrors, atrocities and tragedies that have happened all over the world and are still occurring right now.

And what caused these horrors?

Was it caused by people? Choosing greed, power?

Do you conflate those with natural 'disasters': the earth doing what it does and people getting caught up in that? Peoples afflictions that are also nature running it's course?

Take a hint: With absolute certainty I can say no creator gives a flying fuck about my family or I.

All I see is you putting up two fingers. I don't see how that helps anything. Maybe the release of anger helps you. Someone to blame. Sure.... why not. God wants to heal you... isn't that more productive?

I could NEVER reconcile myself or forfeit what little dignity/self-respect I've retained, sacrifice my compassion for my fellow man, or surrender the humanity salvaged after from those who abused my trust, and then worship some deity.

Your dignity and self respect are tied up in hatred? Dude, let go of the sadness. You say you won't give up on your compassion for your fellow man, whilst at the same time harbouring hatred for others.

[Welsh cake]

You were born with it. Where, in my belief system, do you get that it was created from nothing?

From You. You told me god creates from nothing since he doesn't need to divide up his own consciousness.

We aren't talking about anything. Just faith in God.

Then I have none.

But to answer your secular questions...
Do people with more faith in themselves have and measure of success greater than those who have no faith in their abilities?
Are people who have faith in others misguided always?

I don't know, I can't speak for other people, and I wouldn't say this was secular. I have no faith in anything. If I live, I live. If I die, I die. This applies to everything in my life. It's that simple.

You have a soul. it's part of you.

So you claim, but you haven't been able to provide a positive ontology for it yet.

You couldn't remove it. No one lacks it.

Can I lose, damage or destroy it then? Or have it taken via theft? Can I at least sell the worthless non-thing on ebay?

Again.. God doesn't need you

That's all I needed to know. He won't care then if I try to leave his "Seahaven" creation or prevent me leaving.

Live contrary to the laws of nature and you suffer the consequences immediately.

That's why, if we say hypothetically speaking, god's existence becomes demonstrable, then I want out of his "Seahaven" creation. If you don't live in his reality the laws don't apply. Consequently I may cease to exist as a result of entering "nothingness" but it's my decision, and is infinitely better than the former where you let someone else make the decisions for you forever, thereby opening yourself to nearly every form of abuse conceivable.

Hell is just reward for what you do. Stop doing it to yourself and you get heaven.

I recall C.S. Lewis once saying that hell is infinitely tiny in contrast to god's infinite vastness because the soul has withdrawn into itself to get away from him. If he's right, it's akin to a small dark room where the door is locked from the inside. According to Lewis, it's eternal because we hold the key and we're chosen it for ourselves. Indeed, faced with your monster god I'd no doubt do the same.

It's probably a "state of hell" as opposed to blissful contentment in eternal darkness because it would be a constant bloody contest between my will and the convicting and wooing of the Holy Spirit, the struggle causes the torment. The suffering stops when god admits defeat and moves on. If this became a reality, as unimaginable as it is, I can only hope I manage to destroy the damn key so this frightful god can't ever lock the door open, then again even that doesn't rule out the possibility he could just break the door down, lock or no lock. I hate that uncertainty.

Do you conflate those with natural 'disasters': the earth doing what it does and people getting caught up in that? Peoples afflictions that are also nature running it's course?

Yes, its simple cause and effect. However discovering that an omniscient god created everything and knew only too well about reality's inevitable shortcomings but willed it anyway to fulfil some master bullshit plan makes me vehemently opposed to existence and its apparent creation. I can't conflate or relate to it any longer.

All I see is you putting up two fingers. I don't see how that helps anything. Maybe the release of anger helps you. Someone to blame. Sure.... why not. God wants to heal you... isn't that more productive?

In response to life being a bitch, yeah pretty much (were it a complete bitch we'd all be dead). And if god's real yet supposedly cares (I reject that premise btw) then he's doing a remarkably almighty poor job of showing it. I've never seen any instance where a cosmic entity has a single ounce of compassion for me, let alone the entire human race.

In your theology God demands obedience, readiness and love. I can't give these. I don't love your god because he's fictional, I can detest his actions in the collection of writings, but its not the same thing. If proven real, I wouldn't love your god because I utterly hate and abhor his contemptuous character. But I don't want to live/exist in that hatred constantly, that's why I have to try and leave his "Seaheaven" for the void outside so I can forget his nightmare and reflect upon the tranquillity of the abyss.