Political Correctness

[KevinM1]

Be polite in public.  What a hard thing to grasp.  Seriously, everyone was taught this shit as a kid, and now it's a big deal.

You don't want to be jumped on for your opinion or your joke or whatever?  Then have some general awareness of your surroundings and audience.  To butcher Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park: "Everyone was so busy with the idea that they could share their thoughts, no one stopped to ask if they should."

This is a non-issue to anyone with a functioning sense of how to act in the public sphere.

Do you believe political correctness can go too far though? And where would that line be for you.

I honestly don't know. Nearly every time someone whines about political correctness run amuck, it tends to be a situation where someone does or says something shitty, gets a justifiably negative response to it, and then complains that the response is unjustified.

Are there some overreactions to things? Of course, but it's not limited to those who believe political correctness is okay (see: the overreaction to Colin Kaepernick and NFL players kneeling during the national anthem). Are there some people just looking for an excuse to complain about things, no matter how small or unimportant? Again, of course, but that's also not limited to political correctness.

But none of that means that political correctness - which, really, is just "Hey, some of the things you say and do are actually prejudiced against marginalized groups of people. Stop it." - is bad.

Then again, I'm one of those weirdos that doesn't have a problem with safe spaces. I mean, this forum is a safe space for atheists, right? We can be open and free about our unbelief, free from (most) threats regarding it. I don't see an appreciable difference between an internet safe space and one IRL.

[CapnAwesome]

Do you believe political correctness can go too far though? And where would that line be for you.

Could you give an example of what that would be?

Well I gave mine earlier in the thread. Imagine working in an office, you are extra super on good behavior, g rated humor, minimal flirting, etc. If the political correctness of an office environment leaked into normal life, into entertainment or comedy and everything about our regular behavior was expected to behave like the rules of an office, all G rated and sanitary, that would be too far for me personally.

I'd imagine other people have different threshholds, but

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Do you believe political correctness can go too far though? And where would that line be for you.

I honestly don't know. Nearly every time someone whines about political correctness run amuck, it tends to be a situation where someone does or says something shitty, gets a justifiably negative response to it, and then complains that the response is unjustified.

Are there some overreactions to things? Of course, but it's not limited to those who believe political correctness is okay (see: the overreaction to Colin Kaepernick and NFL players kneeling during the national anthem). Are there some people just looking for an excuse to complain about things, no matter how small or unimportant? Again, of course, but that's also not limited to political correctness.

But none of that means that political correctness - which, really, is just "Hey, some of the things you say and do are actually prejudiced against marginalized groups of people. Stop it." - is bad.

Then again, I'm one of those weirdos that doesn't have a problem with safe spaces. I mean, this forum is a safe space for atheists, right? We can be open and free about our unbelief, free from (most) threats regarding it. I don't see an appreciable difference between an internet safe space and one IRL.

I don't think that's all political correctness is, see my office example. It's about a type of behavior, a way of speaking. When people say 'oh it's just not saying racial slurs' that's just not true. If it were, than we are living in a politically correct society already.

There is obviously scales to it, from just not dropping N-bombs would be like, a 1 on the politically correct scale to totally censored 1984 style societies where they never said anything other than what was officially permitted to talk about and nobody was ever offended that would be a 10. So you should be able to identify somewhere in the middle where it's too much for you.

Not offending people is impossible anyway let, since people are offended by different things and there are 7 billion of us. Some people are so easy to offend. Should one have to censor their speech to not offend the most sensitive of groups.

[Rev. Rye]

Here's yet another example of when political correctness can become counterproductive: the word "niggardly."

Before I explain things: The word "Niggardly" means "stingy." Despite its similar sound to the word "nigger", it has an entirely different etymology to that word with roots in different languages and is several centuries older than that word. And, knowing that racist stereotypes can run at cross purposes, miserliness is not one I know of. In fact, the one n-word related phrase I know that's related to spending habits runs entirely counter to the word "niggardly."

Of course, it's an archaic word that's been superseded by other words that can convey the same nuance without sounding anywhere near as racially dodgy, it probably would have died a natural death, but then, one day in 1999, David Howard, aide to Washington DC's mayor Anthony A. Williams, used the word to describe a budget. Unfortunately, a black colleague took it as a racial insult, and Howard was eventually forced to resign. This resulted in a major fracas, uniting both left-wingers and right-wing idealogues concluding that this might have been a bit much that led to him being rehired, and even the head of the NAACP at the time saying . "David Howard should not have quit. Mayor Williams should bring him back—and order dictionaries issued to all staff who need them."

And thanks to this controversy and another one where a University of Wisconsin - Madison student was offended at the use of the word in a lecture on Chaucer, this archaic and probably obsolete word managed to develop a new lease on life, giving racists an excuse to use the word and claim some level of plausible deniability because, after all, the word has no racial meaning.




And as a direct result of this offense, the racist shitheads can easily create a situation where they have new weapons and the outrage in the PC culture gives them permission to use them. And this shit is still fucking happening. And like a ship full of concentration camp prisoners painted to look like a warship, it's shockingly easy for our outrage culture to lead to shit like this.

[downbeatplumb]

Here's yet another example of when political correctness can become counterproductive: the word "niggardly."

Before I explain things: The word "Niggardly" means "stingy." Despite its similar sound to the word "nigger", it has an entirely different etymology to that word with roots in different languages and is several centuries older than that word. And, knowing that racist stereotypes can run at cross purposes, miserliness is not one I know of. In fact, the one n-word related phrase I know that's related to spending habits runs entirely counter to the word "niggardly."

Of course, it's an archaic word that's been superseded by other words that can convey the same nuance without sounding anywhere near as racially dodgy, it probably would have died a natural death, but then, one day in 1999, David Howard, aide to Washington DC's mayor Anthony A. Williams, used the word to describe a budget. Unfortunately, a black colleague took it as a racial insult, and Howard was eventually forced to resign. This resulted in a major fracas, uniting both left-wingers and right-wing idealogues concluding that this might have been a bit much that led to him being rehired, and even the head of the NAACP at the time saying . "David Howard should not have quit. Mayor Williams should bring him back—and order dictionaries issued to all staff who need them."

And thanks to this controversy and another one where a University of Wisconsin - Madison student was offended at the use of the word in a lecture on Chaucer, this archaic and probably obsolete word managed to develop a new lease on life, giving racists an excuse to use the word and claim some level of plausible deniability because, after all, the word has no racial meaning.




And as a direct result of this offense, the racist shitheads can easily create a situation where they have new weapons and the outrage in the PC culture gives them permission to use them. And this shit is still fucking happening. And like a ship full of concentration camp prisoners painted to look like a warship, it's shockingly easy for our outrage culture to lead to shit like this.

That was an example of an arsehole not knowing something and overreacting.
So  isn't that just everything  American?

[KevinM1]

I honestly don't know.  Nearly every time someone whines about political correctness run amuck, it tends to be a situation where someone does or says something shitty, gets a justifiably negative response to it, and then complains that the response is unjustified.

Are there some overreactions to things?  Of course, but it's not limited to those who believe political correctness is okay (see: the overreaction to Colin Kaepernick and NFL players kneeling during the national anthem).  Are there some people just looking for an excuse to complain about things, no matter how small or unimportant?  Again, of course, but that's also not limited to political correctness.

But none of that means that political correctness - which, really, is just "Hey, some of the things you say and do are actually prejudiced against marginalized groups of people. Stop it." - is bad.

Then again, I'm one of those weirdos that doesn't have a problem with safe spaces.  I mean, this forum is a safe space for atheists, right?  We can be open and free about our unbelief, free from (most) threats regarding it.  I don't see an appreciable difference between an internet safe space and one IRL.

I don't think that's all political correctness is, see my office example. It's about a type of behavior, a way of speaking. When people say 'oh it's just not saying racial slurs' that's just not true. If it were, than we are living in a politically correct society already.

There is obviously scales to it, from just not dropping N-bombs would be like, a 1 on the politically correct scale to totally censored 1984 style societies where they never said anything other than what was officially permitted to talk about and nobody was ever offended that would be a 10. So you should be able to identify somewhere in the middle where it's too much for you.

Not offending people is impossible anyway let, since people are offended by different things and there are 7 billion of us. Some people are so easy to offend. Should one have to censor their speech to not offend the most sensitive of groups.

For me, it's not about being so scared about offending people that a person simply doesn't express themselves.  Like you say, different people are offended by different things, and it's impossible to be 100% accurate about who's offended by what at any particular time.

But, if someone says, "Hey, I don't like that," then chances are I'll apologize and at least attempt to figure out why the other person is objecting.

Regarding your office analogy, it strikes me as being the same kind of strawman that most anti-PC people bring up.  My response is:

1. You're there to work, not socialize.
2. It's entirely possible to be funny/personable in a professional environment without bringing up race/religion/orientation/etc.  Because when the majority of people whine about "Things are so much restrictive now," they're really whining about how they can't remark that the hot secretary looks nice (it may be true that they look nice, but 9 times out of 10 a guy saying it at work comes across as a creeper), or that the joke about the Mexican/Jew/whatever that they think is hilarious isn't really something that's acceptable in a professional environment.

In our current real life, R-rated comedies and dramas still exist.  TV-MA shows still exist.  M-rated games still exist.  But, the trend is that they're more inclusive, not less (more characters of different races, religions, orientation, etc.), and bad behavior - sexism/misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. - is treated like the bad thing it is.  At times, to present nuanced, human characters (people who do good can have shitty attitudes/behaviors at times, and on the flip side, bad people can have redeeming qualities).  At times to explore why these things are indeed bad.  At times, yes, in humor, but the best comedies tend to put those thoughts in their place with an even funnier, more pointed retort.

So, this idea that political correctness is somehow stifling expression is just baffling to me.  It's only stifling if you either lack imagination, or truly cannot function without being a dickhead.

I also reject the notion that political correctness is simply censorship by a different label.  Yes, at times, certain words/expressions get vehement negative reactions.  Sometimes it's warranted (slurs), sometimes people overreact (people flipping out because a well-intending person used the wrong pronoun).  But the point isn't to simply silence certain words/expressions and leave it there.  The point is to create a more welcoming space for all people by not - intentionally or not - excluding them through our use of language.

I mean, we feel it as atheists - when someone starts going on about prayer or god or whatever, do you feel comfortable?  Especially if it's a stranger (or group of them)?

You asked me where the line is.  I haven't encountered it yet.  Every dire warning about a slippery slope - 1984, Iran, North Korea, etc. - is flawed, IMO, a rejection of a strawman because they don't actually understand what political correctness actually is.

[Catholic_Lady]

I believe in being considerate of other people, but truth is always more important. For that reason, I am not so much a fan of PC.

With that being said, there are ways to be tactful and respectful about subjects that may be sensitive to others. As they say, "speak the truth in love", and all that.

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As for avoiding racist jokes, etc, I don't even consider that having anything to do with political correctness. That's just being a decent human.

[Sal]

I'm ambivalent. It seems there are more than one definition for political correctness floating around.

Check out the origin for the word on https://www.dictionary.com/browse/politi...orrect?s=t

Word story

Since entering English in the late 1700s, the term politically correct has undergone several shifts in meaning. Originally, the term was used to describe something that was in accordance with establishedpolitical, legal, or social norms or conventions. The 1870s saw the introduction of the opposite term,politically incorrect , a useful addition to the language, considering how commonly politically correctwas and still is used in negative constructions. 
Somewhat grimly, in the 1920s the Soviet Communist Party began using the concept of political correctness to enforce strict adherence to the party line in all aspects of life. It you were unfortunate enough to be deemedpolitically incorrect , you were likely to be exiled to a gulag, or worse. 
Today the term politically correct (and its abbreviation PC ), more often than not, refers specifically to thelanguage that surrounds controversial or hot-button issues. Liberals have used the negative construction notpolitically correct to draw attention to words, phrases, or statements that they felt were socially unacceptableor insensitive. The conservative response to this has been to question and generally reject the notion of political correctness , arguing that it too often entails “the policing of language.” As a result, critics of the termpolitically correct often use it to modify nouns such as “euphemism,” “nonsense,” “hogwash,” and“propaganda.”

If someone means political correctness as a form of self-censorship, then I think it has negative consequences.

If, however, someone means political correct in simply being cordial and respective of people, then I don't see a problem with it.

Overall, since it's such a muddled term, I'd rather not use it, at least without giving a better explanation on what I mean.

[Javaman]

I believe in being considerate of other people, but truth is always more important. For that reason, I am not so much a fan of PC.

With that being said, there are ways to be tactful and respectful about subjects that may be sensitive to others. As they say, "speak the truth in love", and all that.

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As for avoiding racist jokes, etc, I don't even consider that having anything to do with political correctness. That's just being a decent human.

To be honest, I think you're actually highlighting the reasons why political correctness became a thing in the first place. If you believe in being considerate of others, of being truthful, tactful, and respectful, and of avoiding racist jokes, then it seems to me you should very much be a fan of PC. Maybe it's just me, but being PC was always intended to remind people of the importance of being a decent human being.

Well, you know, before conservatives got hold of the phrase.

[John V]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...ss/572581/

According to the report, 25 percent of Americans are traditional or devoted conservatives, and their views are far outside the American mainstream. Some 8 percent of Americans are progressive activists, and their views are even less typical. By contrast, the two-thirds of Americans who don’t belong to either extreme constitute an “exhausted majority.” Their members “share a sense of fatigue with our polarized national conversation, a willingness to be flexible in their political viewpoints, and a lack of voice in the national conversation.”

Most members of the “exhausted majority,” and then some, dislike political correctness. Among the general population, a full 80 percent believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” Even young people are uncomfortable with it, including 74 percent ages 24 to 29, and 79 percent under age 24. On this particular issue, the woke are in a clear minority across all ages.
...
Progressive activists are the only group that strongly backs political correctness: Only 30 percent see it as a problem.

So what does this group look like? Compared with the rest of the (nationally representative) polling sample, progressive activists are much more likely to be rich, highly educated—and white. They are nearly twice as likely as the average to make more than $100,000 a year. They are nearly three times as likely to have a postgraduate degree. And while 12 percent of the overall sample in the study is African American, only 3 percent of progressive activists are. With the exception of the small tribe of devoted conservatives, progressive activists are the most racially homogeneous group in the country.

[onlinebiker]

"Politically Correct" is as phoney as "True Religion".


Some bullshit somebody cooked up and is desperately trying to validate.