Quote:The term political correctness (adjectivally: politically correct; commonly abbreviated to PC or P.C.) is used to describe language, policies, or measures that are intended to avoid offense or disadvantage to members of particular groups in society. Since the late 1980s, the term has come to refer to avoiding language or behavior that can be seen as excluding, marginalizing, or insulting groups of people considered disadvantaged or discriminated against, especially groups defined by sex or race. In public discourse and the media, it is generally used as a pejorative, implying that these policies are excessive.

The contemporary pejorative usage of the term emerged from conservative criticism of the New Left in the late 20th century. This usage was popularized by a number of articles in The New York Times and other media throughout the 1990s, and was widely used in the debate about Allan Bloom's 1987 book The Closing of the American Mind, and gained further currency in response to Roger Kimball's Tenured Radicals (1990), and conservative author Dinesh D'Souza's 1991 book Illiberal Education, in which he condemned what he saw as liberal efforts to advance self-victimization and multiculturalism through language, affirmative action, and changes to the content of school and university curricula.

Wikipedia || Political correctness

It's not at all clear to me what people mean by political correctness. In as much as political correctness is about holding people responsible for holding abhorrent views, I'm for it. However, I rather doubt that is what people who argue against political correctness are on about. So I'd have to understand what people mean by it, and why it is considered bad before I really could venture an opinion on the matter. As with many things, there seems considerable disagreement about even what it is.

I used to worry about political correctness. But then fascists started marching in the streets again and I thought - "F*ck this noise - we have some real problems now..."

(September 25, 2018 at 11:58 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(September 25, 2018 at 11:37 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Or that it’s pointing out that it CAN go too far and that it can easily go from being a means of enlightening people to just becoming a weapon used at the first sign of a poorly worded statement without thinking things through any more than the target did. It can be used as a force for good or for ill. Fritz Lang in Metropolis said “the mediator between the hands and head must be the heart.” I say the heart and head need to work together if we want to reasonably expect anything to be done.

I think we agree. It can absolutely go too far.

I don't think the outliers heavily inform the central idea, however.

I think that's true and a fair point. People love to point to the outliers. For example all the videos titled "sjw gets triggered" and there is some dumb college kid freaking out over something trivial.

They are outliers, and I personally don't see their ideas going anywhere off campus, seeing as in the real world, nobody cares about your feelings.

I guess I have mixed feelings on the subject. I think political correctness is fine in certain environments, say office work or a bank or a classroom. But in the rest of the world, don't expect people to have to be nice to you or sensetive to your fragile little feelings.

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(September 26, 2018 at 12:55 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

Quote:The term political correctness (adjectivally: politically correct; commonly abbreviated to PC or P.C.) is used to describe language, policies, or measures that are intended to avoid offense or disadvantage to members of particular groups in society. Since the late 1980s, the term has come to refer to avoiding language or behavior that can be seen as excluding, marginalizing, or insulting groups of people considered disadvantaged or discriminated against, especially groups defined by sex or race. In public discourse and the media, it is generally used as a pejorative, implying that these policies are excessive.

The contemporary pejorative usage of the term emerged from conservative criticism of the New Left in the late 20th century. This usage was popularized by a number of articles in The New York Times and other media throughout the 1990s, and was widely used in the debate about Allan Bloom's 1987 book The Closing of the American Mind, and gained further currency in response to Roger Kimball's Tenured Radicals (1990), and conservative author Dinesh D'Souza's 1991 book Illiberal Education, in which he condemned what he saw as liberal efforts to advance self-victimization and multiculturalism through language, affirmative action, and changes to the content of school and university curricula.

Wikipedia || Political correctness

It's not at all clear to me what people mean by political correctness. In as much as political correctness is about holding people responsible for holding abhorrent views, I'm for it. However, I rather doubt that is what people who argue against political correctness are on about. So I'd have to understand what people mean by it, and why it is considered bad before I really could venture an opinion on the matter. As with many things, there seems considerable disagreement about even what it is.

Yeah, I agree it's a hard conversation to even get started because people don't seem to be talking about the same thing, and there is a lot of 'bait and switch' going on also I feel.

Like people will say, "how hard is it to not call someone a racial slur'

Well not hard at all. But if that were all that political correctness was, it wouldn't even be an issue and I sincerely doubt that is all that people really expect out of a politically correct society.

On the other side you get people who take the most extreme social justice warrior college student who says some stupid shit and say 'look, this is political correctness." But really I just see those videos as young people who don't know anything and only represent a tiny portion of America.

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(September 25, 2018 at 4:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(September 25, 2018 at 4:26 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Political Correctness is about more than just not dropping N-bombs. If it were just that, then basically everyone is succeeding at being politically correct already.

Oh..are they...........

Quote:That's a bait and switch. Esspecially since you referenced extreme political correctness. Perhaps we should back up the conversation though. What do you consider ''mild political correctness" and what do you consider "extreme political correctness"

I'll give you my examples. I consider mild political correctness not dropping racial slurs or saying sexiest jokes etc.

I consider extreme political correctness to be something like an office environment, where you have to be on your best behavior. You force yourself to get along with people and don't tell fat jokes about your fat annoying co-worker, even though they are annoying, etc.

-and?  You think that extreme pc is not being allowed to be a dick on somebody else's dime..at your place of work?  That's what bothers you? Cry me a river. 

Quote:Now example b is fine for working in an office, but not how I definitely don't want to live my entire life that way, with office rules. That sounds terrible.

PC doesnt really have much to do with what you say in private, now does it? Just bank up all the fat jokes for sally and tell them to the mirror when you get home.

Pc means I cant tell fat jokes at work without someone calling me an asshole! Jesus christ you snowflake, will you survive? lol.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if you were expected to behave like that all the time, as people have been in many societies, that's extreme political correctness.

Do you actually want to live like that? I mean obviously not. You don't behave like that on the forums, so it's hard to believe you expect others to all the time.

Now give your definitions.

(September 26, 2018 at 2:50 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if you were expected to behave like that all the time, as people have been in many societies, that's extreme political correctness.

Do you actually want to live like that? I mean obviously not. You don't behave like that on the forums, so it's hard to believe you expect others to all the time.

Now give your definitions.

We -are- expected not to be a complete racist ass at all times..but no ones installing speakers in our dens to listen in, so? Do I stumble around the boards selling racial myths and bitching about darkies?

Jorg already gave a good description of what it was..and the origin of the rhetoric against it. What can I add?

There's at least one thing I agree wholeheartedly with you on, there was a massive bait and switch, lol.

Be polite in public. What a hard thing to grasp. Seriously, everyone was taught this shit as a kid, and now it's a big deal.

You don't want to be jumped on for your opinion or your joke or whatever? Then have some general awareness of your surroundings and audience. To butcher Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park: "Everyone was so busy with the idea that they could share their thoughts, no one stopped to ask if they should."

This is a non-issue to anyone with a functioning sense of how to act in the public sphere.

I've long since reached the point where I automatically lose respect for someone if they begin a conversation by complaining that "political correctness has gone too far".

Experience has taught me that such a person is almost certainly looking for affirmation that their racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic views are not actually racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic. Or that maybe that they themselves are somehow the victim for holding such views. My suspicion is that they are actually testing me to see if I, as a white heterosexual cisgender male, secretly agree with their views. I'm not shy about disabusing them of that notion.

This has made for some awkward family gatherings, I will admit.

My personal recollection is that PC originally meant simply to take a stand against overtly racist and sexist language and/or behaviour that had been considered socially acceptable for far too long. Somewhere along the way, conservatives coopted the phrase and turned it into a slur -- worse yet, they often seem determined to compel people to justify why it is they want to put an end to racism, sexism, and all those other generally shitty -isms.

So, long story short, I don't know if I'm in favour of or against Political Correctness lol.

(September 25, 2018 at 3:35 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: It's interesting to see this become such a big political topic again. This is a rather broad topic but in general are your more in favor or against political correctness?

It is an abused term. 

I am not for banning offensive speech or blasphemy. But there is a huge difference between that, and promoting oppression and bigotry of others.

Politically correct are what Iran, Saudi Arabia and North Korea are. If one doesn't believe me, go visit and say something to their law or government to their face you know will offend them.

The only thing that bothers me about my well intended left in all this, is sometimes they can be over protective to the point it allows the conservative right to pull the same shit and falsely claim to be the victim.

You can for example, value the likes of Malala, but say Muslims women in the west, while they wear hijabs by their own choice, may not see that sends a message to other women in parts of the world a message that it is ok for men to oppress them. 

You can for example value a liberal Catholic and point out the institutions horrible history of hiding kiddy fiddlers.

You can for example, value the empathy of Martin Luther King Jr but reject claims of magic babies with super powers.

Even with atheists. Penn Jillette gets social issues right, but he fucking pisses me off with his economic views and I do think he is full of shit. No, that does not mean I want to stab him to death, it merely means I think he is full of shit on economics.

I don't think for example people should get pissed about South Park or Dave Shapel. I do think however, we should combat our right wing and our current president whom is using political vilification to silence any challenge to his power.

(September 26, 2018 at 9:21 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Be polite in public. What a hard thing to grasp. Seriously, everyone was taught this shit as a kid, and now it's a big deal.

You don't want to be jumped on for your opinion or your joke or whatever? Then have some general awareness of your surroundings and audience. To butcher Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park: "Everyone was so busy with the idea that they could share their thoughts, no one stopped to ask if they should."

This is a non-issue to anyone with a functioning sense of how to act in the public sphere.

Do you believe political correctness can go too far though? And where would that line be for you.

Probably when it either fails to take into account the reality of the situation at hand or when it becomes counterproductive.

(October 1, 2018 at 12:17 am)CapnAwesome Wrote:

(September 26, 2018 at 9:21 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Be polite in public.  What a hard thing to grasp.  Seriously, everyone was taught this shit as a kid, and now it's a big deal.

You don't want to be jumped on for your opinion or your joke or whatever?  Then have some general awareness of your surroundings and audience.  To butcher Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park: "Everyone was so busy with the idea that they could share their thoughts, no one stopped to ask if they should."

This is a non-issue to anyone with a functioning sense of how to act in the public sphere.

Do you believe political correctness can go too far though? And where would that line be for you.

Could you give an example of what that would be?