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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 22, 2019 at 6:55 pm
(This post was last modified: December 22, 2019 at 6:55 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(December 22, 2019 at 5:53 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: (December 22, 2019 at 5:47 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: And that literally proves nothing
the Quran never needs another book with it; it's the direct preserved word of God.
Unevidenced assertion.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 22, 2019 at 7:15 pm
I'm not at all convinced that the unaltered text of a book for 1400 years proves anything beyond very meticulous and unimaginative scribes.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 22, 2019 at 8:03 pm
(December 22, 2019 at 6:38 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: (December 22, 2019 at 6:19 pm)brewer Wrote: Not that it makes a shit bit of difference but there appears to be scholars that disagree with you.
They have the right to disagree with me, but they should never threaten my life -or the life of others- because of this disagreement.
Ya lost me.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 22, 2019 at 8:39 pm
(December 22, 2019 at 6:38 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: (December 22, 2019 at 6:19 pm)brewer Wrote: Not that it makes a shit bit of difference but there appears to be scholars that disagree with you.
They have the right to disagree with me, but they should never threaten my life -or the life of others- because of this disagreement.
You might be missing the whole point of organized religion.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 22, 2019 at 9:07 pm
(This post was last modified: December 22, 2019 at 9:16 pm by WinterHold.)
(December 22, 2019 at 6:51 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: And, absolutely none of that is evidence of the claim that the Quran is the direct word of a god. You cannot prove the truth of a book using the book. That is circular reasoning. You’re more like MK than you think.
The Quran is not a magic book neither it is a book of spells. Without observing in what the universe gives or what life teaches with experience, the book is obsolete.
In other words; if you wanted evidence for the existence of God observe the stars and observe the universe; and read the Quran.
(December 22, 2019 at 6:55 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (December 22, 2019 at 5:53 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: the Quran never needs another book with it; it's the direct preserved word of God.
Unevidenced assertion.
No; it needs constant observation of the universe.
(December 22, 2019 at 7:15 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I'm not at all convinced that the unaltered text of a book for 1400 years proves anything beyond very meticulous and unimaginative scribes.
Boru
But the book was revealed in Arabia where:
1-The Mongols burnt libraries
2-The Crusaders invaded
3-Muslims fought together
4-wars and invasions are still going to this day
I'll be surprised if a single book survived all that turmoil.
(December 22, 2019 at 8:39 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (December 22, 2019 at 6:38 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: They have the right to disagree with me, but they should never threaten my life -or the life of others- because of this disagreement.
You might be missing the whole point of organized religion.
Boru
The Quran was tolerant to rejection of its message; many verses in it prohibited Muslims from the killing of peaceful non-Muslims
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 22, 2019 at 9:20 pm
(This post was last modified: December 22, 2019 at 9:22 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(December 22, 2019 at 9:07 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: (December 22, 2019 at 6:51 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: And, absolutely none of that is evidence of the claim that the Quran is the direct word of a god. You cannot prove the truth of a book using the book. That is circular reasoning. You’re more like MK than you think.
The Quran is not a magic book neither it is a book of spells. Without observing in what the universe gives or what life teaches with experience, the book is obsolete.
In other words; if you wanted evidence for the existence of God observe the stars and observe the universe; and read the Quran.
Following that line of reasoning, I could observe the universe, read the Bible, and reach a conclusion that invalidates your own. If you can use the same method for ascertaining what is true and arrive at mutually exclusive conclusions, then your method is not reliable, Atlas.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 22, 2019 at 9:21 pm
(This post was last modified: December 22, 2019 at 9:34 pm by no one.
Edit Reason: keyboard gnomes
)
![[Image: icon_quote.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg) AtlasS33:
In other words; if you wanted evidence for the existence of God observe the stars and observe the universe; and read the Quran.
By this logic, the Sorcerer's Stone is evidence for Hogwarts and Voldemort?
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 22, 2019 at 10:14 pm
As wrong then as it is today. Give or take those pesky diacritics.
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 22, 2019 at 10:23 pm
(December 22, 2019 at 5:42 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The Quran is an ancient book; Islam dictates that the Quran is the direct word of God, and moreover it dictates that the book was neither twisted nor changed through the years.
It's a one heavy premise, archeology though dropped its weight on the matter; so let's see how the premise fairs against it.
1) Birmingham Quran manuscript (Radiocarbon date: 568 and 645 CE)
Held in the University of Birmingham, it's a parchment on which two leaves of an early Quranic manuscript were written; now I leave you with the wikipedia link containing all the sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham...manuscript
Quote:The Birmingham Quran manuscript is a parchment on which two leaves of an early Quranic manuscript are written. In 2015 the manuscript, which is held by the University of Birmingham,[1] was radiocarbon dated to between 568 and 645 CE (in the Islamic calendar, between 56 BH and 25 AH).[2][3] It is part of the Mingana Collection of Middle Eastern manuscripts, held by the university's Cadbury Research Library.[2]
This very old Quran -which is identical to what we have today- is the ultimate proof that the premise did fair against the odds.
As a side note; this is one group of verses in it -identical to what I read now-:
Quote:The leaves preserve parts of Surahs 18 (Al-Kahf) to 20 (Taha).[4]
Quote:
Sura 20, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh
( 1 ) Ta, Ha.
( 2 ) We have not sent down to you the Qur'an that you be distressed
( 3 ) But only as a reminder for those who fear [Allah] -
( 4 ) A revelation from He who created the earth and highest heavens,
( 5 ) The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established.
Another note; I thank Britain and its scientific community for keeping this priceless piece of history preserved.
Quote:It was on display at the University of Birmingham in 2015 and then at Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery until 5 August 2016.[5]
Thank you.
2) Sanaa manuscript (Radiocarbon date: 578 CE and 669 CE with a 95% accuracy.[4])
Quote:The Sanaa palimpsest (also Ṣanʽā’ 1 or DAM 01-27.1) is one of the oldest Quranic manuscripts in existence.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa_manuscript
These old fragments containing the same Quran I read today is an evidence that the premise was satisfied. The Quran we have today is the same since 1400 years.
The Koran is simply a regurgitation of the Jewish Bible and not a very imaginative one. Sort of like a Mesopotamian Book of Mormon.
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!
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RE: [Quranic Reflection]: Quranic manuscripts from 1400 years
December 23, 2019 at 3:01 am
(December 22, 2019 at 9:20 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Following that line of reasoning, I could observe the universe, read the Bible, and reach a conclusion that invalidates your own. If you can use the same method for ascertaining what is true and arrive at mutually exclusive conclusions, then your method is not reliable, Atlas.
But you will be met by the flagrant verses in the bible, proving to you that the book -the bible- is the word of man, not God.
While the Quran is a total different cup of tea regarding explicit, flagrant language: it simply has no such language.
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