Ghost Guns - one of the left's lies.

[Silver]

What are ghost guns?

Ghost guns are unserialized and untraceable firearms that can be bought online and assembled at home. They are often sold through "ghost gun kits," which include all of the parts and often the equipment necessary to build these weapons at home. These kits are widely available and can be purchased by anyone, including prohibited purchasers, domestic abusers, and gun traffickers — without a background check. As these kits and guns are sold at gun shows and online every day throughout the country, they undermine all of the life-saving policies that state legislatures have fought so hard to put in place.

.................

IMPACT OF GHOST GUNS ON COMMUNITIES
The sale of ghost gun parts and kits have increased significantly in recent years, and not surprisingly, the use of ghost guns in crime has increased exponentially:

In 2020, Carlos A. Canino, the Special Agent in charge of the ATF Los Angeles Field Division, explained: “Forty-one percent, so almost half our cases we're coming across are these ghost guns."

In 2017, three ghost guns were recovered by law enforcement in the District of Columbia. In 2018, it was 25 ghost guns. In 2019, 116 ghost guns were recovered, and at least three in connection with homicides. Just two months into 2020, 38 ghost guns had already been recovered, which suggests over 220 ghost guns will be recovered in crime in 2020.

Ghost guns have been used in three separate mass shootings in California: Saugus (2019), Tehama County (2017), and Santa Monica (2013). Twelve people, including two teenagers, were killed in these shootings. Dozens more were shot and injured. The Tehama and Santa Monica shooters were prohibited from purchasing firearms, and the Saugus shooter was a minor who, by virtue of his age, was not legally able to possess any firearm under California law.

GHOST GUNS UNDERMINE LAW ENFORCEMENT
Gun tracing — a method for identifying the sequence of ownership from manufacturing to the first retail sale is — as the ATF has noted, “an integral tool in law enforcement’s efforts to reduce firearms-related violence.” Ghost guns have no serial numbers and are untraceable. Gun traffickers can purchase unlimited numbers of parts and kits and build unserialized guns which can then be easily diverted into the criminal market, leaving law enforcement with no way to trace their origin. These weapons are, by design, perfect crime guns.

WHAT MUST BE DONE
It is critical for states to act now to proactively prevent ghost guns from becoming more prevalent. New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, California, Washington State, and the District of Columbia have all taken action to regulate or ban ghost guns, and several other states are considering similar legislation.

The ATF should also broaden its interpretation of the term “firearm” to include unfinished frames and receivers which are designed and marketed to be easily converted into firearms.

[onlinebiker]

What are ghost guns?

Ghost guns are unserialized and untraceable firearms that can be bought online and assembled at home. They are often sold through "ghost gun kits," which include all of the parts and often the equipment necessary to build these weapons at home. These kits are widely available and can be purchased by anyone, including prohibited purchasers, domestic abusers, and gun traffickers — without a background check. As these kits and guns are sold at gun shows and online every day throughout the country, they undermine all of the life-saving policies that state legislatures have fought so hard to put in place.

.................

IMPACT OF GHOST GUNS ON COMMUNITIES
The sale of ghost gun parts and kits have increased significantly in recent years, and not surprisingly, the use of ghost guns in crime has increased exponentially:

In 2020, Carlos A. Canino, the Special Agent in charge of the ATF Los Angeles Field Division, explained: “Forty-one percent, so almost half our cases we're coming across are these ghost guns."

In 2017, three ghost guns were recovered by law enforcement in the District of Columbia. In 2018, it was 25 ghost guns. In 2019, 116 ghost guns were recovered, and at least three in connection with homicides. Just two months into 2020, 38 ghost guns had already been recovered, which suggests over 220 ghost guns will be recovered in crime in 2020.

Ghost guns have been used in three separate mass shootings in California: Saugus (2019), Tehama County (2017), and Santa Monica (2013). Twelve people, including two teenagers, were killed in these shootings. Dozens more were shot and injured. The Tehama and Santa Monica shooters were prohibited from purchasing firearms, and the Saugus shooter was a minor who, by virtue of his age, was not legally able to possess any firearm under California law.

GHOST GUNS UNDERMINE LAW ENFORCEMENT
Gun tracing — a method for identifying the sequence of ownership from manufacturing to the first retail sale is — as the ATF has noted, “an integral tool in law enforcement’s efforts to reduce firearms-related violence.” Ghost guns have no serial numbers and are untraceable. Gun traffickers can purchase unlimited numbers of parts and kits and build unserialized guns which can then be easily diverted into the criminal market, leaving law enforcement with no way to trace their origin. These weapons are, by design, perfect crime guns.

WHAT MUST BE DONE
It is critical for states to act now to proactively prevent ghost guns from becoming more prevalent. New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, California, Washington State, and the District of Columbia have all taken action to regulate or ban ghost guns, and several other states are considering similar legislation.

The ATF should also broaden its interpretation of the term “firearm” to include unfinished frames and receivers which are designed and marketed to be easily converted into firearms.

You people watch too much TV...

 Once a rifle or shotgun leaves a gun shop - there is NO way to trace it' s ownership.... (The same for handguns in many states)

So you find the original owner.   He only need say three words.

"I sold it".

End of trail. He is not required to keep records of who he sold it to - and is under no obligation to help law enforcement.....

If you think otherwise - re- read first sentence.

[The Grand Nudger]

What you mean to say is that there are ways an interested criminal party might try to stymy any and every attempt to trace a gun, not that there aren't ways to do so. Due to the toothless nature of the entire atf, also a product of interested criminal parties, the main use for the kind of data they're referring to is to see how guns move between states. If a batch of guns is purchased in, say, florida, and ends up being confiscated in kentucky still together with no record of sale - you have a trafficker on your hands. If they fire that gun and it matches trace data in some other crime..you have trafficking -and- that crime.

Each state has a known pipeline, as represented by trace data. Yes, we know that criminals will be criminals, but their willingness to engage in criminality doesn't actually scrub the universe clean of any evidence of their criminality. Your hypothetical guy could say "I sold them all"..and if they have no answer as to who they sold it to, they're admitting to a federal crime right off the bat. They may want to go ahead and cooperate, lest Uncle Sam get the bright idea that they themselves are trafficking in weapons later used in the commission of a crime and confiscated by law enforcement. This isn't the wild west, even if gun nuts and gun control nuts alike insist as much.

Perhaps, though, our hypothetical guy is you, OLB, and even though you do know who you sold them to, you decide that snitches get stitches, and say "said his name was John". Well, okay, sit down and describe john for us and we'll be looking for a guy who matches that description that travels between florida and kentucky. If and when we find our trafficker we'll ask him about you. Hope you guys got your stories straight.

[onlinebiker]

What you mean to say is that there are ways an interested criminal party might try to stymy any and every attempt to trace a gun, not that there aren't ways to do so.  Due to the toothless nature of the entire atf, also a product of interested criminal parties, the main use for the kind of data they're referring to is to see how guns move between states.  If a batch of guns is purchased in, say, florida, and ends up being confiscated in kentucky still together with no record of sale - you have a trafficker on your hands.  If they fire that gun and it matches trace data in some other crime..you have trafficking -and- that crime.  

Each state has a known pipeline, as represented by trace data.  Yes, we know that criminals will be criminals, but their willingness to engage in criminality doesn't actually scrub the universe clean of any evidence  of their criminality.  Your hypothetical guy could say "I sold them all"..and if they have no answer as to who they sold it to, they're admitting to a federal crime right off the bat.  They may want to go ahead and cooperate, lest Uncle Sam get the bright idea that they themselves are trafficking in weapons later used in the commission of a crime and confiscated by law enforcement.  This isn't the wild west, even if gun nuts and gun control nuts alike insist as much.

Perhaps, though, our hypothetical guy is you, OLB, and even though you do know who you sold them to, you decide that snitches get stitches, and say "said his name was John".  Well, okay, sit down and describe john for us and we'll be looking for a guy who matches that description that travels between florida and kentucky.  If and when we find our trafficker we'll ask him about you.  Hope you guys got your stories straight.

Making shit up there bunkie....

Exactly what crime would be committed if I sold a rifle?

There is NO requirement for me to know the buyer, his history, or legal problems AND there is no way for me to legally check.


Be specific.

[The Grand Nudger]

If you sold a rifle to a person who's name you don't know then you could not have satisfied even the minimum requirements of a peer to peer transfer, and you know that..as our gun expert, I'm sure. There is a way for you to know, and you actually are federally required to have at least a credible expectation that you're not selling guns to a drug dealer for purposes of crime...but that's really irrelevant to the issue of ghost guns as it plays out in law enforcement. They want to track the gun, not your silly ass. You tell them you sold it to a guy named "John" who seemed decent enough and they'll be more interested in John than you - mostly because they're dealing with an issue where you sold a bunch of guns in one state that showed up together in another at the scene of a crime.. A ghost gun has no provenance whatsoever. You don't know where it came from, who it went through, or even who manufactured it t..when. Insomuch as we do actually have a system for managing all of that data and insomuch as our laws will allow and to whatever extent a budget affords - and this type of firearm is specifically designed to evade that -, the issue is clear.

No more love for law and order....? I mean, we wouldn't want cops getting murdered by completely untraceable weapons, would we? This doesn't seem like a lie of the left so much as a general complaint that uncle sam is coming for your ghost gun. At least it's true, in this case, which is refreshing. They'll have to rely on distribution as they find it and human sources rather than serialized production and transfer - but I suspect they'll have some success - given that they already find alot of illicit products without the benefit of such a system. As with so much else in law enforcement, I doubt that the end result will be anything other than squeezing possessors for information on suppliers, ad infinitum, till you find the nut in his basement making guns. Care to take a bet as to whether or not the cops will find something actionable when they raid him? Sounds like the kind of guy they might no knock, to me.

[onlinebiker]

If you sold a rifle to a person who's name you don't know then you could not have satisfied even the minimum requirements of a peer to peer transfer, and you know that..as our gun expert, I'm sin iure.  There is a way for you to know, and you actually are federally required to have at least a credible expectation that you're not selling guns to a drug dealer for purposes of crime...but that's really irrelevant to the issue of ghost guns as it plays out in law enforcement.  They want to track the gun, not your silly ass.  You tell them you sold it to a guy named "John" who seemed decent enough and they'll be more interested in John than you - mostly because they're dealing with an issue where you sold a bunch of guns in one state that showed up together in another at the scene of a crime..  A ghost gun has no provenance whatsoever.  You don't know where it came from, who it went through, or even who manufactured it t..when.  Insomuch as we do actually have a system for managing all of that data and insomuch as our laws will allow and to whatever extent a budget affords - and this type of firearm is specifically designed to evade that -, the issue is clear.

No more love for law and order....?  I mean, we wouldn't want cops getting murdered by completely untraceable weapons, would we?  This doesn't seem like a lie of the left so much as a general complaint that uncle sam is coming for your ghost gun.  At least it's true, in this case, which is refreshing.  They'll have to rely on distribution as they find it and human sources rather than serialized production and transfer - but I suspect they'll have some success - given that they already find alot of illicit products without the benefit of such a system.  As with so much else in law enforcement, I doubt that the end result will be anything other than squeezing possessors for information on suppliers, ad infinitum, till you find the nut in his basement making guns.  Care to take a bet as to whether or not the cops will find something actionable when they raid him?  Sounds like the kind of guy they might no knock, to me.

That's the longest winded example of " I made it up"" I have ever seen....


Have a cookie for your efforts.


As a private seller - I have no legal obligation to keep records of any kind for guns ( except machine guns)I sell for the Federal government. In this state - I only have to do paperwork on pistols -and there is no legal obligation to keep that paperwork.


This is the fabled " gun show loophole".

It' s not a loophole. It is a private sale.

Additionally - there is no legal way for a private seller to perform a background check on a prospective buyer.


Got any more bullshit stories about legal obligations?

If so - QUOTE THE SECTION OF LAW.

[The Grand Nudger]

A private seller isn't free of any restictions, and you being a gun expert, know that.
https://www.findlaw.com/consumer/consume...state.html

It's not even a believable claim on it's face, for these poor lefties who don't know guns...the notion that uncle sam would leave himself with absolutely no case to pursue in the event some gun trafficker decided to say that it was a "private sale" and we a, just took him at his word, or..b, acted like it would even be relevant. Of course an illegal transfer is a private sale....

So maybe it's time to cooperate with johnny law.....? "Holy shit, he did what? I never would have guessed, it wasn't immediately obvious to me that he was trafficking". You help them, they go on their way, and, hopefully.....that claim was true, because otherwise you've just added a charge should they find out you lied to their faces. You know how cops get.

I suppose you could complain, in addition to complaining that uncle sam is coming for your guns, that uncle sam has made a private sale so frought with potential legal danger and simultaneously so toothless as to enforce it..that the situation is absurd. That's true too, and the intentional product of a criminal party. Gun nuts want gun laws to be fucked up, so they fuck them up, so that they can then argue to get rid of them on account of how fucked up they are. Same shit with healthcare or civil rights. It's the one trick they have, I guess - their racket, if you will.

[arewethereyet]

Oh goody - yet another gun thread that's going nowhere.

[The Grand Nudger]

There's a gun nut in it that probably isn't capable of going anywhere, but if there were people who took gun nuts word for shit in thread believing that the us is the wild west with no laws and no way to enforce laws...then that's potential for movement of a kind. I've had alot of success with filthy libs and foreigners in explaining that they can take a breath on that part...we don't quite live in that hellish dystopia yet - not for lack of trying.

There are tons of guns laws in the us, state and federal, and all of them are being routinely broken with little to no consequence. Might have something to do with the kind of people breaking them and their relationship to law and order..or somethin. I doubt OLB is taking a gangbangers word for an innocent private sale, for example..even though he seems to think (and may even be right to think) that cletus could sell a crate of ak's to a fucking known terrorist np. We're unpredictably selective...for some novel values of the term unpredictable.

[onlinebiker]

A private seller isn't free of any restictions, and you being a gun expert, know that.
https://www.findlaw.com/consumer/consume...state.html

It's not even a believable claim on it's face, for these poor lefties who don't know guns...the notion that uncle sam would leave himself with absolutely no case to pursue in the event some gun trafficker decided to say that it was a "private sale" and we a, just took him at his word, or..b, acted like it would even be relevant.  Of course an illegal transfer is a private sale....

So maybe it's time to cooperate with johnny law.....?  "Holy shit, he did what?  I never would have guessed, it wasn't immediately obvious to me that he was trafficking".  You help them, they go on their way, and, hopefully.....that claim was true, because otherwise you've just added a charge should they find out you lied to their faces.  You know how cops get.

I suppose you could complain, in addition to complaining that uncle sam is coming for your guns, that uncle sam has made a private sale so frought with potential legal danger and simultaneously so toothless as to enforce it..that the situation is absurd.  That's true too, and the intentional product of a criminal party.  Gun nuts want gun laws to be fucked up, so they fuck them up, so that they can then argue to get rid of them on account of how fucked up they are.  Same shit with healthcare or civil rights.  It's the one trick they have, I guess - their racket, if you will.

The "restrictions" you listed are STATE - not FEDERAL. Some states do have some restrictions - about selling to a minor - or KNOWINGLY selling to a felon. But there is NONE that have a requirement for record keeping.


But - if you don't personally know the buyer - you can't KNOWINGLY sell to a felon.

In other words - you got squat.

A seller is NOT required to keep any records. I DEFY YOU to show a form that needs to be filled out when selling a rifle.

As usual - you post a wall of reactionary bullshit and expect everyone to believe you..



Folks -- don't listen to him. Or Me....

Call your local law enforcement -- ask them what you have to do to sell Grampa's old Winchester.....


....

Bet they tell you "take cash only"...