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Who said "nothing happens", quite alot happens. The links I gave aren't nothing, are they? What I'm saying is that fairy tales don't happen. I say that because we have no reason to believe that they do and every reason to believe that they don't. We have no evidence that they do, and mountains of evidence that they don't.
What happens to consciousness when the brain ceases to function? Ever seen someone shot in the head with a parabellum round? That's what happens to consciousness when the brain ceases to function. Gone, dead, nothing, nada, radio silence. That our brains are the seat and source of consciousness has been demonstrated about as well as anything could be. We have never, in all of human experimentation, found a single disembodied consciousness. We have however observed drastic alterations in individuals who have suffered sever trauma to the brain (intentional or unintentional), and we have of course witnessed death. What we don't understand are the specifics, not the generalities. To use a very simple analogy. When you pick up the phone, even though you don't understand exactly how the phone is transmitting the message, you can say with certainty that it is the phone doing the work and not "dark magic".
Nor am I saying claim magic. I hold little hope though that a pure materialist and substance monist will ever discover anything outside the material though. That's fine, science has functioned exceedingly well in this environment. If I cited one instance where someone had knowledge of something they could not have had while their brain were dead, would that suffice (Which I have done on this site and don't feel like doing over and over with every new atheist). I could bet you would disprove every single subjective experience even if it were 1 billion. What are the probabilistic odds that just one of them could be true? And from your perspective you'd be perfectly right in doing so. I just hope you realize that if you weren't trying so hard to disprove dualism you might see and admit that if even one of them could be proven true materialistically that the our understanding of the world would change drastically. I'm not claiming to objectively and materialistically and measurably test the immaterial, it's currently outside our means to be reliable. I'm claiming that without setting aside you bias you could be being blind to an entire truth you refuse to see.
I'm not claiming to be able to prove it by your materialistic standards. But shouldn't the proof match the premise?
You can claim brain death is the cessation of the sum of who we are, fine. It is clearly shown that manipulation of the brain affects the mind. It has also been shown that ceasing all brain doing a little surgery and starting it back up is recoverable. The person is still a person. They may have a different personality or be completely unaffected, but the fact they are still a they, falsifies the brain ceasing removes the sum of who we are.
On a side note, you deny the story because of motives yet think there are no greed in medical companies.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
It seems to mean "not agreeing with my bullshit". It's starting to piss me off as well.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
We all have them, I'm just saying that it's disingenuous for someone who won't allow for the immaterial because it's unreliable or materially immeasurable to participate in a conversation they obviously have no intent on seeing the other side of. If he'd have just stated his objections and view clearly then left it alone, most of this would have been left at "It's logically unlikely theologically that there isn't free will in Heaven" Or in this case "There's no way to materialistically test what happens to your soul after you die as it's immaterial at the loosest definition, but here's a postulation in answer to the question"
5th- Everyone has a bias, but presentation of documented, albeit subjective, experiences of potential after death scenarios with logical explanations of the immaterial is the closest anyone will get at this point to an answer to the OP question. Now when someone wants to figure out testing methods of the immaterial I'd support that. It's better than blindly assuming countless documented cases are all by those crazy Christians, despite them having no religious dependencies, not thatanyone or everyone does that, but a lot of atheists I've spoken with feel that way and share it regularly.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
November 11, 2011 at 1:59 pm (This post was last modified: November 11, 2011 at 2:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I will allow for the immaterial as long as it remains immaterial Tack. I've said this so many times in so many threads that I'm pretty sure that this will be the last time I say it. What grinds my gears are claims of the immaterial interacting with the material without anything to substantiate the claim. Bad evidence is no evidence at all Tack. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
Let's break this down. If we have souls, that experience the afterlife;
-How do they experience this afterlife without the machinery that allows us to "experience" anything?
-If this machinery isn't required to "experience" anything, then why do we seem to require it to begin with?
So, are we seeing with our machinery or with our "spirit eyes"? One of these systems is either redundant or non-existent. We can demonstrate the machinery bit, so were does that leave us? I absolutely hate claims to the immaterial that are no such thing. I also hate "answers" or "explanations" which merely lay a blanket of magic over understood mechanics without any additional explanatory power but plenty of cumbersome baggage. This is not honest inquiry, this is an attempt to insert a fairy tale that is dear to you into reality.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
I was asked to insert my perspective on reality because this is a question for theists. It's not a question for scientists, or a question for strict materialist or substance monists. I answered the question. I showed the logical reasonable assumptions behind that based on my beliefs (read my bias... sorry TSQ had to). You consider them unreasonable I showed where they are plausible. It's not up to your standards of evidence I get it. With irrational expectations I'll even still answer your questions, as that is still my reason for being on this forum.
We see with our eyes. Material eyes are necessary to see the material. That does not mean there are only 5 senses as that has been verifiable proven to be not the sum of what we can perceive or experience.
-How do they experience this afterlife without the machinery that allows us to "experience" anything? IDK, perhaps that machinery is also immaterial
-If this machinery isn't required to "experience" anything, then why do we seem to require it to begin with? by "experiencing anything" do you mean "experiencing anything tangible"?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
November 11, 2011 at 2:42 pm (This post was last modified: November 11, 2011 at 2:46 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
And we've reached the cruz of my objections at this point. I do understand our disconnect, I do understand why you believe what you do (regardless of whether or not I feel that it is well founded or rational). I simply feel that the explanations offered in these cases aren't actually explanations, they beg more questions than they answer. The farther down the rabbit hole we go the larger the pool of unanswered questions becomes. On what basis did we begin the journey down the hole to begin with if nothing tangible can be offered? If these are acceptable "explanations" or valid propositions then it would seem that almost anything could be acceptable or valid. It's such an elaborate concept with nothing to bite into. How did it become so elaborate in the first place? How can so much be claimed about something that (by the definition offered) cannot be known in the first place? Also, if this immaterial thing is beyond the authority of science then why offer up science as a defense of it? You seem to be straddling both sides of the fence depending on which angle I choose to assault the claim from. Either scientific inquiry cannot elucidate this claim by definition, or scientific inquiry has provided us with credible reason to investigate it further. They cannot both be the case simultaneously.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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