Alpha Course

[Kree]

It's the most frustrating thing about arguing with convinced theists: they refuse to give any ground or acknowledgement to good arguments because they don't want their faith damaged and their eternal holiday visa to imagineland revoked.

I don't think I'd be able to be so patient in the face of such seemingly apparent stonewalling, so I commend you.

[pgrimes15]

Alpha Course Week 8 28th November


Numbers – 20 people, 5 men.

The Meal.

Oh dear !! Where did it all go wrong ?!! Hitting the bottom here. Don't know what happened, but I noticed that one of the regular ladies, someone I know to be a professional caterer, did not seem to be there. Perhaps she was otherwise detained at the last minute, but tonights meal was a hastily cobbled together “stew” - reminiscent of my student days. A cereal bowl with a sort of thick soup of potato, carrot, and some stewing steak. Nevertheless it wasn't ghastly, just basic. After was bread and butter pudding – no custard, not enough sugar, not enough raisins. The only way is up from here.

The Talking

Tonight’s topic was “Why and how should I tell others?” given by “father” who is a church elder. The “Why” was explained as bringing people to Jesus because they otherwise fill their lives with drugs and sex (I seem to be missing out somewhere!!) as well as the usual eternal salvation etc. The “How” was described in a mnemonic which I had never heard of before called the 5 P's – presence , persuasion, proclamation, power and prayer. The meaning of some these is self evident, but look it up on Google if you're interested. He followed up by a couple of examples – when the leader of the nursery next door left her job, some of the church members prayed for a Christian replacement to be appointed, which came about – a supposed example of the power of prayer, but I did not see how it related to the topic. Also he claimed that when people converted, they always found that someone said “Oh I prayed for that” - another example of the power of prayer. He mentioned William Wilberforce who had worked for 45 years to get the slave trade abolished – er – I've forgotten what the moral of that example was. As has been the case in the latter part of this course, all thought of “Explore the meaning of life” has disappeared and this is pure Christian evangelizing strategy – I wondered what I was doing here.

The Discussion

Same groups as last week with the exception that the meal group lady who likes talking about her grandchildren was not there - nobody knew why - and she was replaced by the vicars wife. Usual opening “Any questions or comments about the talk” , silence all round, short pause, and then I mentioned that I have a couple of comments. I don't know why the vicar doesn't just say to me straight off “What are your comments?”.

My first was that “father” mentioned the fear that he and his wife had experienced when they told their respective families they were “converting” to Anglicism from Roman Catholicism. I expressed surprise that it seemed almost as if they had changed religion. The Portuguese lady, who was a former Catholic due to her country of birth, weighed in about how they (Catholics) are not encouraged to read the bible, knew nothing about Jesus, and were generally a right bunch of bastards !! No trouble understanding her now, and no-one else had a good word to say about them !! For once I felt that I wasn't a representative of the most hated group of people – that honour definitely went to the Catholics !! Vicar took a more conciliatory tone “I know many fine and godly Catholics . .etc” but it was interesting to be an outsider looking in. If they cannot agree amongst themselves how do they expect anyone else to take them seriously ?

Next I mentioned that evangelising to people in this country comes over as preaching because most people already know at least the bare bones of the Christian “good news”. The rest of the group disagreed, claiming that people did not know who Jesus was or what Easter and Christmas meant – the other meal group lady kept repeating “Jesus is a swear word !” - that got quite annoying. I know why they were claiming this ignorance on behalf of the average man on the street, because it explains to them why very few people go to church, - far better think that than people have looked at the church and thought “No I don't believe in magic”. It was tempting to point out that Easter is an ancient fertility celebration to mark the coming of spring, and that Christmas has its origins in pre-history as a mid-winter festival to celebrate to birth of the new year after the winter solstice – both of which were later hi-jacked by Christians.

Next - “William Wilberforce worked for 45 years to abolish the slave trade. He probably could have got it done a lot quicker if the slave owners here and in America weren't able to call upon bible passages to support their trade.” Same lame excuses appeared here – things were different then and do not apply now – I said that only changes the question to “Who decides which Bible verses are irrelevant and can be ignored, and which must be adhered to rigidly – you? (to the vicar)”

I then mentioned the “power of prayer” example of the nursery leader. “Doesn't that mean that potentially a perfectly good and decent atheist candidate was denied the job because of prayer ?” This started another discussion about prayer similar to a previous one “Does God change the future in your favour when you pray to him ?” Some people mentioned that it was the same question from a few weeks back and I felt gratified that they had remembered it – maybe reflecting in a quiet moment the question will nag at them. The vicar said that God answers prayers in one of 3 ways – yes, no ,or wait. I countered that a God who answers prayer in those ways is impossible to distinguish from a God who does not exist. He then claimed to be able to look back on his life and determine the times when God had guided him or answered his prayers, I countered that he is starting from a prior assumption that God exists and is retrospectively interpreting past events to confirm that assumption.

The session was coming to an end and the vicar asked me, vis-a-vis the topic of the evening, whether I minded if people were evangelising to me, either here in the church or in the street. I said I didn't mind in the church considering the place it is, but that if someone approached me in the street with that in mind it would be at least 30 minutes before they could get away from me !! This raised quite a good laugh.

I should say that all this discussion is done in a good-natured and friendly way now – much like a dinner party discussion. The structure has settled into a routine – I make notes during the talk and come to the discussion with half a dozen questions ready. Nobody else seems to be interested in raising anything so we work through my questions where I am able to get in some of my “bullet points”. The rest of the session then becomes me against the rest, defending my non-belief. The group I have been allocated still isolates me from everyone who may be tempted by my arguments – I firmly believe that is deliberate although it has been denied.

Helped put chairs away said goodbye and left.

Next week - “Does God heal today?”

regards

pgrimes15

[Norfolk And Chance]

Look forward to the next installment!

[pgrimes15]

The "female church elder" keeps telling me that Christianity is the only religion where God sent his son to be sacrificed. It would be brilliant to give her another example of a religion past or present that sacrificed a god or god-figure. Any ideas ?

regards

pgrimes15

[Norfolk And Chance]

I can't think of any other religion.

Perhaps posit to her that Christianity is the only religion where god willingly murdered his own son because a couple of humans made a couple of trivial mistakes, and maybe other religions don't have god do this because they are more moral?

Or just tell her to fuck off.

[The Grand Nudger]

The entirety of the Aztec pantheon threw itself in a fire to save humanity (depending upon which principality one lived in, and what point in time we're speaking of). Not just one god sending one of his children, all of them. Might explain why they went to such lengths to appease these gods, given the sacrifice they believed the gods had made for them. Of course these gods, like the christian gods, are immortal. So, after this sacrifice humanity was safe and they resumed their usual day to day. I particularly like this sacrificial god concept as opposed to others, because there's no way apologists can claim this narrative is derived from or a perversion of (or even influenced by) their own. Or, if you prefer to use a narrative that drew more similarities, there is a specific tradition (Nahua, Meso-American) of a single gods self sacrifice for human beings benefit. Nanauatzin and The Five Suns.

Pro-tip, any claim to superiority by unique nature of any religion asks you to ignore the massive amounts of similarities between any two religions. Your "friend" is banking on you not knowing too much about heretical faiths (or banking on the notion that you may be as ignorant as she is with regards to the same). Clever, since her religion attempted to annihilate these alternatives for some reason. One of our resident apologists tried this bullshit argument on me, unfortunately for bullshit I'm not ignorant with regards to sacrificial gods. Notice that this argument doesn't actually make any truth claim (though it's implied). It's just a "wouldn't it be nice if" argument. Well, no it wouldn't be nice if god was a scapegoater, and no it isn't unique. At least in the Nahua naarrative the gods aren't omnipotent, and there was no other way for them to take action and receive the desired effect. They couldn't simply make the cosmos or any part of it conform to their wishes by waving their hands. That's the part that irks me about the christian scapegoating god, he didn't have to go about in in this manner. It was simply a choice he decided to make out of an infinite number of possible choices (omnipotence and omniscience being only two of his garbage attributes, let alone omni-benevolence). Why then decide to make your "plan" conform to a common human notion (that predates christianity's claim to it) which is absolutely baseless and sick?

(I use the term "friend" loosely, as I'm sure she would like to believe she's "just trying to help". If people want to make these arguments they should do their own fucking homework before they offer them up as gospel.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_suns

[pgrimes15]

That's excellent Ryhthm - just what I need !! I have been looking at Krishna, Osiris and Mithra, and although these have elements of the Jesus story, (death of a god-man, ressurection) it is the SACRIFICE part which was the missing element. In this mythology Nanauatzin threw himself into a fire to become the sun for the benefit of the world and its' people, and the rest sacrificed themselves to create a wind to get the sun going - all for the benefit of mankind. I'll challenge "female church elder" with this tomorow night and report back what her response is.

regards

pgrimes15

[The Grand Nudger]

I can tell you how it will end. Those savages myths are just stories, and her myths are the gospel and word of god. The only satisfaction you'll recieve out of any of this is the pleasure of learning about the myths of a culture you were not previously exposed to. If this satisfied christians they would not make these arguments in the first place. The best you'll get is "Well, I like my myths more than I like theirs."

[KichigaiNeko]

The "female church elder" keeps telling me that Christianity is the only religion where God sent his son to be sacrificed. It would be brilliant to give her another example of a religion past or present that sacrificed a god or god-figure. Any ideas ?

regards

pgrimes15

That is not true..ALL religions have this as a theme...the deity "sacrifices" themselves or some other to "save" humanity..it is a very old leit-motif as far as stories go and as rhythm has pointed out just one of the many.

[pgrimes15]

Alpha Course Week 9 5th December

The Meal

This week it was pretty good. My friend the professional caterer was back and it showed. Lasagne with salad and coleslaw – very nice. Pudding was fresh fruit cocktail with some cream from an aerosol. Not bad at all, one of the better weeks for food. Sat at my usual end with the ladies but did not have too much “grandchild” talk to put up with. Spoke with the Portuguese lady for quite a long time since I have been on holiday to Portugal and she comes from close to where I went. Despite her being hard to understand sometimes, I get on really well with her.

Numbers 18 people 6 men.

The Talk

Topic this week was “Does God heal today ?” Obviously the answer to this was a resounding yes . The first thing the vicar said was that God heals through doctors and nurses. I think this was meant to be a nod to the medical skills of health professionals and that people shouldn't JUST rely on god for their health care (why not I hear you ask), but it is a pretty nonsensical statement – more about it later. This was followed up by some anecdotes about healing – all set in churches where a preacher or healer would say, “someone has got a sore bottom” or something like that and others would rush forward saying “how did you know – oh – it's better now !” He followed up by an anecdote from his Alpha Course training course where someone with whiplash (honestly he could hardly walk) was miraculously healed and was doing cartwheels. (I have actually seen this happen to a friend, and to cap it all, a large cheque from a motor insurance company arrived soon after !) Then examples of Jesus healing in the bible and scripture verses about it. Vicar also mentioned raising from the dead, claiming it does happen – not in our society but in Africa – mentioning a couple of anecdotal tales about the practice. Isn't this flirting with heresy ??

Interlude

After the talk I was busting to go the loo. I asked where it was and headed off down some stairs and off to the left.. When I walked in, there, a few urinals along was the young non-christian chap I have mentioned before who was there with his Christian wife (at the course, not there in the loo!). We looked at each other and said “alright”' The urinal is a sacred place for men with special rules of behaviour. I asked how it was going for him - “ok” - and he asked the same, “well they haven't converted me yet – how about you ?”. He said “yeah” - “Oh really when did that happen?” - “during the away day “ - “really !! Did you feel something? -” Yeah quite a lot.” - “Oh I see “,. Back to urinal mens stuff – stare at the walls - some rules can't be broken. During this whole exchange he was about as excited as if he had just discovered he had herpes. If I had said “I see you drive a Ford Fiesta is that reliable? He would have been far more animated and interested “Yeah , I got it quite cheap , it goes like a bomb but the kids like it , the insurance was cheap , but its got quite a bit of poke in it ...etc “ because blokes like to talk about their cars. As it was, the revelation that he had found Jesus was not worth mentioning until I specifically asked him. All the while he was looking straight ahead ( urinal protocol) and seemed as if he wished he could be anywhere else.
Unless I am a really bad judge of people, he knew that I knew he was just pretending and was a little embarrassed . I don't blame him, maybe his wife had been pressurising him and he wanted to get in with his new friends (no doubt there are all kinds of hugs and kissing and inclusions with friendly people saying how brilliant it is !!).

The Discussion

Same groups as the last few weeks, no doubt it will be the same next week which is the last one. My days of influencing anyone whose faith is not set in stone (i.e. over 50 and life long church goers) are long past. If you have read my previous postings you will remember that my high point was week 5 where I felt I had them on the run !! Their solution - quarantine !!
Usual format “Any questions about the talk?” .Blank looks and silence, so, with a sigh this time I said I have a couple of questions. “In the talk you said God heals through doctors and nurses. Could you just expand on this – what do you actually mean by it?” “Well, just what I said that the power of god's healing is felt in hospitals” “Could you be more specific – I mean does god control the doctors like robots, does he oversee and just intervene when necessary, does he take a back seat and let them do their work confident that their training will guide them ?” At this point he deferred to “female church elder” who said “He helps them to choose the right medicines” I say “ What about nurses and doctors in Japan, how do they select the right treatments, do they just have to rely on their training? “ She just said “yes”. I had asked this last question as a sort of lampoon so was taken aback at this simple affirmation of the absurd. We had moved on by the time I got my wits together but I think this issue has great potential (What about a Muslim doctor treating a Muslim patient in this country? Why is Japanese life expectancy so high when their doctors have to muddle through without gods' help?) so if I am able I will come back to it next week.

Next question to the group “Do you think god heals?” Obviously everyone but me was sure he did and this prompted a rather tedious round of anecdotes about it. The one that stands out in my memory was from “female church elder”. A man came to her church once with a crooked thumb – it had been injured in an accident. People prayed for it and it straightened!! Thanks be to god!! Children in their thousands lie in hospitals with cancer, but he can cure a man’s' bent thumb !!

When my turn came I said “It will come as no surprise to anyone that I don't believe that, and it is a specific example of a more general thing. When you speak about Jesus talking to you and a relationship with the lord, or you have a feeling in your heart etc. nobody can dispute it. It is personal to you. But when Christians make claims about their god reaching down to the real world, affecting people and events, making things happen – quite dramatic things like saving peoples lives or protecting them from the devil, then that can be measured. If God is intervening so often to cure people who would otherwise die, or giving Christians better medical outcomes surely that will show up on someone's statistic !! Every Christian in this church – indeed in the country - has their tale to tell of a miraculous rescue from certain death due to the power of prayer. This is a real world claim that can be tested. Compare the medical results of certain conditions in this (Christian) country with those of, say, (non-Christian) Japan, and the difference should be detectable. The person who uncovers this will not only win the Nobel prize and billions of converts to their religion, but their name will resound down the ages alongside Newton and Einstein as someone who has discovered one of the basic truths of the universe !! I don't know what's stopping you !!!” This was quite a long speech even by my standards and I have reproduced it as best as I can. It is something I find important, the mismatch between the picture of the world painted by Christians and the actual world that you see when you open your eyes and look around. The responses? What you would expect. “God doesn't have to prove himself” “The statistics aren't done properly” “When a Christian is healed they don't go back to their doctor so won't show up on a statistic”

The meal group lady said “There is evidence outside that god exists” “Is there – what is it?” I said, pointedly getting my pen poised over my notebook to record these earth shattering revelations. “It's the trees and the stars”. Clearly this ladies level of sophistication about her religion hasn't advanced beyond Sunday school. “There is a perfectly good scientific explanation for these things, and it is backed up by evidence” Somehow this then got onto the absurdity of thinking we were descended from apes but the vicar intervened saying “We are the evidence that god exists” Huhhh?? “You might as well say that I am the evidence that god doesn't exist, or Hindus are evidence that Vishnu exists”
I'm beginning to lose the will to live and am quite glad that next week is the last
Not much else to report about this week. I did talk to the “female church elder” about the Meso-American gods who sacrificed themselves for the world. She said “But did they rise from the dead?” I said “There are plenty of gods who rose from the dead Mithra, Krishna, Horus,” but to be honest I left it there, my heart wasn't in it. Roll on next week and the end of the course.

Next week (last one hurrah!) “What about the church ?”

regards

pgrimes15