The God Delusion

[Anto Kennedy]

Now the next question is, what is nothing?

The total lack of anything even space. Pretty much blows it for your god or any other don't it?

Next?

Kyu

God isn't a thing, God creates things.

What kind of being requires it's creation, it's child, in order to exist?

Does a father (God) require a son (the universe) in order to exist? Or is it only the son that requires the father.

In the beginning there was nothing.......

When on high heaven was not named,
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsû, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamat, the mother of them both,
Their waters were mingled together,
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;
When of the gods none had been called into being.

The Enuma Elis, Babylonian creation myth.

The word Tiamat is a cognate of the Hebrew Tehom, the deep (and darkness was over the face of the deep)

[Kyuuketsuki]

The total lack of anything even space. Pretty much blows it for your god or any other don't it?

Next?

God isn't a thing, God creates things. What kind of being requires it's creation, it's child, in order to exist?
Does a father (God) require a son (the universe) in order to exist? Or is it only the son that requires the father. In the beginning there was nothing.......

Yeah so you say ... but some validatable evidence would be nice otherwise you're just talking the same old shit every other theist (and claimant of every wacky idea under the sun) claims.

Oh and just so you know your god isn't my father or even a distant fucking ancestor, the available evidence (i.e. none) indicates your god is just another bullshit fairy tale ... my Dad is dead but I at least had the privilege of knowing him.

Kyu

[Anto Kennedy]

ahh, fairy tales.

Did you know the fairies used to be real?

Originally they were known as the Tuatha De Danaan.

They were the original agricultural settlers in Ireland, dating from the neolithic.

These are the people that constructed monuments like Newgrange & Stonehenge.

Later, after Roman invasion and Catholic conversion, these demi-gods, as they were known, were reduced in stature, historically, culturally, and even physically, to the point where they are today, mere 2-4ft tall, yet still living in those aforementioned "fairy mounds"

And that's just an introduction to the fairies, there's much more to be told.

[LEDO]

ahh, fairy tales.

Did you know the fairies used to be real?

Originally they were known as the Tuatha De Danaan.

They were the original agricultural settlers in Ireland, dating from the neolithic.

These are the people that constructed monuments like Newgrange & Stonehenge.

Later, after Roman invasion and Catholic conversion, these demi-gods, as they were known, were reduced in stature, historically, culturally, and even physically, to the point where they are today, mere 2-4ft tall, yet still living in those aforementioned "fairy mounds"

And that's just an introduction to the fairies, there's much more to be told.

Yes and St. Patrick is a myth.

[Anto Kennedy]

So is LEDO

[Purple Rabbit]

No. I am not being funny at all. God, like the universe would have to become more chaotic with time, unless he is constantly expanding etc. For God to be steady and eternal would mean his entropy has somehow ceased. This could only happen if his entropy was at a maximun for his volume, which would mean his chaotic nature would be infinity.

God is described with certain properties. Thought is one of those properties. How does God think? What is the mechanism? How are his thoughts stored? This would require a location. Where?

Quantum Physics claims there is no frame of reference outside of the universe, hence where ever god is located, it must be within the confinds of an expanding universe where entropy (chaos) is increasing.

Nothing exists outside of the "laws" of the universe. God must be defined within those laws, or it cannot exist.

One might claim god, by definition exists outside the laws of the universe, however the laws claim nothing exists outside of them, ergo, "God is nothing."

The religious 'solved' this problem ages ago by stating that god is supernatural. In other words, he/she/it is not subject to the laws of nature. When you are demanding that for instance god's thoughts require a storage location you are trapped in your own thinking box. The claim the religious make is that god in his supernatural domain (not necessarily a domain with spatial dimensions!) escapes all restrictions of this universe. The weak point in this religious idea is that they have no clue how he does this (they are accepting on blind faith), also claim that god somehow intervenes in the natural domain we call universe and that he is omnipresent and allmighty in that domain. On the border between the supernatuiral and the natural lies a big problem for religious thinkers.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

@Leto

I've gone and gotten all confused again. Are you claiming to have inferred the non existence of God?

My understanding is that proposition is unfalsifiable.

The argument reminds me of a scene in [the book] "Gulliver's Travel's". In Lilliput, a furious philosopher is screaming at Gulliver telling him to bugger off. The reason for his fury is that he has proved giants don't exist,ergo Gulliver doesn't exist.He should go away and stop confusing people.

That's what tends to happen when one conflates logic with reality;sometimes they correlate,but they are not causally related.

[LEDO]

No. I am not being funny at all. God, like the universe would have to become more chaotic with time, unless he is constantly expanding etc. For God to be steady and eternal would mean his entropy has somehow ceased. This could only happen if his entropy was at a maximun for his volume, which would mean his chaotic nature would be infinity.

God is described with certain properties. Thought is one of those properties. How does God think? What is the mechanism? How are his thoughts stored? This would require a location. Where?

Quantum Physics claims there is no frame of reference outside of the universe, hence where ever god is located, it must be within the confinds of an expanding universe where entropy (chaos) is increasing.

Nothing exists outside of the "laws" of the universe. God must be defined within those laws, or it cannot exist.

One might claim god, by definition exists outside the laws of the universe, however the laws claim nothing exists outside of them, ergo, "God is nothing."

The religious 'solved' this problem ages ago by stating that god is supernatural. In other words, he/she/it is not subject to the laws of nature. When you are demanding that for instance god's thoughts require a storage location you are trapped in your own thinking box. The claim the religious make is that god in his supernatural domain (not necessarily a domain with spatial dimensions!) escapes all restrictions of this universe. The weak point in this religious idea is that they have no clue how he does this (they are accepting on blind faith), also claim that god somehow intervenes in the natural domain we call universe and that he is omnipresent and allmighty in that domain. On the border between the supernatuiral and the natural lies a big problem for religious thinkers.

Correct, although I don't know how the problem is solved. No one has proved anything can exist outside of our laws, nor is there any evidence of its existance. The properties of this place and being outside the laws of the universe would therefore be entirely made of conjecture. My conjecture nothing exists is as valid as one who conjectures heaven, hell, and God. The one difference is I have science on my side.

Padraic, my argument is that if there is no place to put something, no means to describe it, "no frame of reference" it doesn't exist. Now if you want to tell me god is composed of alpha waves which create a cosmic mind, that would be more acceptable than say one which has no bounds. My proof contends that nothing exists outside of the bounds of laws of the universe. God could exist inside those laws, and existance could be proven, if that was the case and we knew where to look. Of course we would have to redefine our traditional view of God as an old Jewish man.

[Purple Rabbit]

Correct, although I don't know how the problem is solved. No one has proved anything can exist outside of our laws, nor is there any evidence of its existance. The properties of this place and being outside the laws of the universe would therefore be entirely made of conjecture.

Of course, but conjectures, even unverifiable ones, CAN be true conjectures.

My conjecture nothing exists is as valid as one who conjectures heaven, hell, and God.

Also, conjectures regarding gods in other realities have no trouble surviving your criticism because always new unverifiable conjectures can be added to those realities. For instance the conjecture that logic does not hold in these other realities. These other realities act as a safe haven for gods, fairies, sorcerers and pokemon, to name only a few creations of the human mind.

The one difference is I have science on my side.

You are free to conjecture that ;-)

[Kyuuketsuki]

Did you know the fairies used to be real?

No Anto, faeries (as in small human-like creatures with wings and magical powers etc.) were not real and anything else is just a fucking word game.

Kyu