God's law or private law?

[Leonardo17]

1) a) That might be true. But as I told Grand Nudger, nobody is asking you to believe anything. There are many people who are into Yoga and Meditation only for its benefits. I personally know people who are into these things and still define themselves as atheists.
b) I would argue against that. Ancient people explained natural events with their mythology featuring man-like deities. When Freyja was in the underworld it was winter, when she was free it was summer. The thunder was caused by the Hammer of Thor etc. etc.
I think we know better than that today. So when I look at the perfection of the universe I personally assume that whatever intelligence created it, it’s bigger than ours.

2) Well… I think I agree

3) Some say there are even layers of meanings in these texts. Let’s take the story of creation for instance. To be it represents creation but not in a physical manner. For me this represents the soul who is adopting an Ego in order to be able to exist in this physical realm. Both the soul and the ego here are understood as “energies”. But doing this they are losing their eternal existence in God (Paradise or heaven). And the serpent here is the “evil” character of our own very Ego that distorts, hides, covers reality and tricks us into eating the apple (that represents the belief in an existence that is separate from God).
So this is just one example. I am not asking you to believe it. But if you wanted to tell that in your own words, how would you proceed? In the Quran it say: “If you don’t believe in these words, why don’t you write something similar?”
(Or that’s how I see it basically)

3b) I agree that it’s exactly what it looks like at first sight. And there are no hidden meanings like numerology or the astrological verses of Nostradamus. I even read about somebody trying to decipher the Torah by reading the Hebrew version in a diagonal manner etc. I believe this to be a complete waste of time.
In my understanding, God does not simply “destroy all those who deny him”. That’s just the twisted interpretation of the Spanish Reconquista. That’s not how I see it. There are some belief systems that I consider to be completely twisted. There are some old belief systems that I consider to be highly traditional, too superficial and unnecessarily dogmatic. But I have completely lost the feeling that God Doesn’t like “the others”. This is one of the contradictions of those old-school belief systems that I find to be a realm of inaction and laziness.

Someone very famous in my country once said: “If you find a contradiction between me and science, chose science”.

So that’s what I did. But instead of turning me into an atheist, this approach turned me into this.

I have a feeling you don’t see the benefit of doing what I am doing. But try to think of the “Superior Human Being” that is mentioned by Nietche in the book Ecce Homo. Or think of the path humanity is on in this very moment. I think the world is a mess. And although science is offering us solutions, There is no “one size fit all” solution to anything in this planet.

Check this one out for example:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/greta-thu...267ca5f759

The man is 33 years old. And climate change is not a new phenomenon. In 1998 TIME magazine had an issue that was dedicated to climate change. I was 16 year old when I read that and this guy lives in 2023 and is 33 years old while he is posting that tweet.

And that’s why Sadhguru (a famous Guru of India) is according to be completely right when he describes the mind as a cutting tool. That’s what the mind does. It’s like a sharp knife that dissects everything. So for this very reason, we have satellites outside the solar system now. But we have no solution (I watched a documentary on this recently) we have no ecological solution for own body excrement. We are still wasting like 50 gallons of water pro person everyday just to deal with our own poop. We don’t have one technology that is better than the technology of Roman Latrines in antiquity.

So that’s the potential of spirituality (or true spirituality if you want). It’s there to help us take control of the Ego and the Buddhi (the intellect) and do some inner transformation. I think there has to be transformation right now. The mind alone cannot do it. Science alone won’t cut it. In the 20th century the communists have tried that, the hippies have tried that, I mean no. It’s not going to work (nothing is going to change) unless we are able to bring some new element into this mess and that new element is what I call this spiritual awareness or spiritual growth.

You don’t have a better solution for that. Just look at the news. If I am wrong, than how would you solve all of this?

[The Grand Nudger]

I believe that the first step taken against slavery in the western world were the monotheistic religions. The economy of the Roman Empire relied almost entirely on slavery. Christianity replaced it with serfdom. Islam put some limits to it and placed it inside some sort of legal context. And serfdom, not slavery was the basis of the medieval labor economy in the Islamic world as well. Slaves were still much less used in comparison to the Roman way of doing things.

You all appear to have very strange notions of what your religions actually did on the issue of human property.  I strongly suspect that this is utilitarian with respect to the below.
 

1) If there is a God that we can simply define as “The highest or Supreme Being” and this being is a good being (The word “God” in old German meant something like “The highest good”) and if we are logical beings by creation, then the message given by that being has to be a positive, constructive, helpful and logical message. Otherwise there are only two option a) He doesn’t exist, b) He is a man-like person like the Gods in the Greek Mythology who doesn’t really know what he is doing. I don’t agree with the b) option :

The short version here, it seems to me, is that if you didn't believe hilarious things like the above, you may be forced to reconcile a shitty god as described with how you feel about shitty gods.  

2) I don’t think these are simply “the products of their times”. I read ancient philosophers as well. If you like simple wisdom, you might read the works of Marcus Aurelius as well. Plato and Socrates were also great thinkers of their times. I also like modern philosophers and other thinkers as well. I think spiritual knowledge is different. While reading a book on philosophy all that you need to do is to remain well focused. And the end result is a sort of knowledge that accumulates. Faith has a different mechanism. It’s a life-long process. We in the west we are meditating on some texts, trying to decipher their meaning in a lifelong process. They don’t even do that in the east. They just sit down and remain silent. So this is not really wisdom that we are after. The goal here is spiritual growth and increased spiritual understanding.

We're all a product of our times.  Marcus Aurelius, Plato, Socrates, all of these people had opinions very much rooted in their own time..that, to us today, seem absurd - just as some of the things you I I today believe will be recognized as absurd someday..I'm sure.  

3) On reading the magic books: I don’t think you just “read” these holy books. I even knew someone who had learned Arabic and saw some meaning that were hidden in the Arab Alphabet and grammar itself. And in my Ancient-Greek class I met people who would learn Ancient Greek in order to be able to read the New Testament more effectively. There are even people who learn Aramaic in order to be able to do that. And that’s where it gets complicated: There are several methods of spiritual awakening. Learning about the messages hidden in the scriptures is one of them. Meditation is another. Devotion alone is said to lead us to spiritual enlightenment as well.

Thus...magic books.   It's always a wonder to me that, when I call them magic books, it gets perceived as a dig....and then a cultist goes right ahead and explains how they're magical anyway.  Often enough, in some comment about how I'm not taking them seriously enough.  

  You seem to believe that there no such thing that is spiritual and that all mystic traditions were an invention from the very beginning. That’s not a bad theory either. We have the archaeological record that shows us how we started from the cult of the mother-Goddess, then switched to organized religions before finally inventing monotheistic religions. I see what you mean. The history of mankind is clearly older than the history of organized religions.

Let’s say I’m working on the possibility that there might be some sort of common knowledge that existed since at least the time of the builders of the earliest religious structures. Like if this is some sort of Matrix we are in. There has to be a switch that allows us to get out of the Matrix if we want to. The idea may seem crazy to some. But that’s my idea on what might be happening in this world.

After all Socrates said “All that I know is that I don’t know anything”. So everyone is free to have his or her theories on these things right?

Pick a lane - magic books, lost civilizations, or matrix crap.  Yes, the idea seems crazy.  I'm sure the full bouquet is even nuttier. Particularly in that we've already reached the point where you demand that there be some way out. You searching for that switch?

Can't imagine what might go wrong with a religion like that.

[Leonardo17]

Well… I don’t know. All of this is just to give you an idea about what a believer looks like. Today There was this U.K. cleric who said that Prince Harry was a killer of Muslims. So my answer to that is:
1) A Muslim is someone who surrenders his/her Ego to God. The Taliban fighters who were just brainwashed fanatics whom I don’t see as Muslims. Therefore Harry just performed his duty as a member of the British Armed forces and anyone who tries to portray this as an act of enmity toward Muslims must know that I don’t feel offended at all. The only thing I have in common with Taliban’s is my humanity and if you don’t believe me you can read everything I wrote in this topic.
2) I don’t know what “corruption on earth” is. I don’t want to seem arrogant but there is a term in the Quran about “people who explicitly want to create disorder and chaos”. Well, if the Taliban, Al-Quaida, the IRI and Putin don’t fall into this category I don’t know who does. Of course they are not characters in a video game, but if Prince Harry had to shoot them while he was on duty in Afghanistan, maybe he just had to. I have no objection against that

+ There is a wave of manifestation across Europe + the US against IRI this week. The demonstrations in Iran are not dying out either. And the number of people hanged by the regime has reached 23. I am not writing all of the names in detail because I don’t want to upset anyone. Yet, members of the IRI government + political islamist clerics are now speaking out against these death sentences that are given as a result of forced confessions.

+ As I said before attacking an SS if you are in Nazi Germany is not “waging war on God”. Not only is this accusation completely illogical, it is also the opposite of the original religious teaching. In my understanding, enmity toward all forms of tyranny is not only allowed in Islam, but it is also a duty (like the duty of waging war against a foreign aggressor who is invading your country).

And one last thing: I know that new age teachings can seem completely crazy at some point. I also agree with that. That’s why I am keeping a foot on some more traditional teachings. But I must add that I’ve learned a lot from these teachings also. And I have nothing against the more materialistic approach either. Still this label called “religion” should not be used by anyone at any time. This UK cleric speaking about enmity against Muslims is a M.on. He doesn’t even deserve any attention. What he knows about Level 1 spirituality = 0. That’s all I can tell about this guy whose name I’m not even going to mention.

[Leonardo17]

See this Guy:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/anjem-choudar...31881.html

Prison or mexico border. Now

[The Grand Nudger]

Well..he did serve...wouldn't surprise me if he killed a few muslims. This is a rarified bunch, but were all pretty well aware that islam means submission - and that's certainly a problem that taliban fighters have. See..when you genuinely believe in submission...and your conscience says "fuck this shit", well..fuck that conscience. The whole point is submission. They're definitely muslims, but I suppose that it's easier to try and pull their muslim card than to confront the issues...even as you see them..with your shared magic book, and your shared god. I doubt you share a common humanity, but you do share a common religion. As for who else fits in the category with the taliban..as you tell it...according to magic book..any so-called "enemy of islam". You're polishing a turd on this one, searching for pearls of tolerance and strong moral fiber in a 7th century warlords treatise on identity and obedience. There's nothing opposite any "original teaching" in conceiving of pagans at war with muslims as attacking god. That's the constant excuse said warlord gives in the magic book in question.

New age teachings "seem crazy" because they're a buffet style hodgepodge of mismatching elements which do not reflect their respective traditions. There's nothing wrong with the word religion..there's nothing inherently wrong with religion as a phenomena- there's a whole hell of alot wrong with some religions. It's amazing to me that the people who want to improve their religions cling to those shitty parts of the originating faiths.

As for the cleric.....just as soon as any of you can show that you know a single thing about Real Spirituality™ we can have some discussion about which of the two of you, some nutball cleric, or your nutball self, knows more about it. Until then, there's a fundamental equivalence between the two of you. You don;t like his religion...but you're no closer to establishing that he's wrong than you are to establishing that you are right - and the sad part is that you haven't even tried. Hobbled by some lazy insistence on what a god is asserted to have said..or not said.

[Leonardo17]

1) These are basic misunderstandings that are based on your chakra level. For a first chakra level person “submission” is understood as “total submission an obedience to a given ideology whether it’s a logical ideology or not” it’s just a message of becoming a robot or a little puppy that does whatever you teach it to do. That’s why religion has always been a good tool for controlling the masses.

Still a third chakra person will interpret this differently. We all have an inner / infinite reality in us (you may not agree but that’s the basic idea). We define this as our true self. And we want to submit our Ego (our fake or superficial persona) to this infinite reality. And the “magic book” is one of the many tools we can use to do that.

When you do the opposite. That is when you add things to the teaching because you want to add them, then use the teaching as a tool to impose your convictions on other people, this means you are doing the exact opposite. Instead of using the teaching a mean of surrendering your Ego to your higher self, you are using the teaching / the doctrine to serve your own Ego-based convictions and beliefs. That’s one of the key elements in the books written by Y.N. Öztürk. And it’s a serious problem that we are facing within many religious traditions. The reason for that is that we are still in an era of low energies. That is we are slowly awakening as humanity, but we are still at the very beginning of our true potential. So we don’t hate those people. Still, etymologically, they are people who are submitting religion to their ego based twisted convictions. I / we are using the teaching to rediscover our own true, inner nature. So if they are in, I have to be out. And if I am in. Than they must be out

2b) There is no “enemy of Islam”. There is just a term that I will translate as “those who create trouble / disorder”. The media is translating the accusations made by the IRI on innocent protester as “enmity toward God” and / or “corruption on earth”. I am not an expert but number one is an absurdity. Even if God was a cosmic persona (and I already said I don’t see it that way), I can’t begin to imagine the kind of technology necessary to do that (I know they have missiles and all but I don’t think this is ever going to be possible )
And number two is an error of translation. “Those who create trouble / chaos” (the way I understand it) means spies, provocateurs, propagandists and / or terrorists. So the Taliban are in this category and are not in my category.

In the middle ages there was this Guy called Hassan Sabah or “the old man of the mountain”. His disciple were called assassins. From the world Hashashi because this “old man of the mountain” used drugs to brainwash his disciples and turn them into suicide sqads to go and murder whoever he wanted in the medieval Arab world. So this clause in the holy books is giving us a license to kill these people if / when we put our hands on them. The Quran specifically says “search them, look for them from every watchtower and disable them (kill them)”. But I may be wrong. I’m not an expert. But I am a very sensitive person too. Still I felt nothing at all when I heard that Harry of Whales killed 23 Taliban’s. As long as respected the rules of war, I’m perfectly fine with that
2) Ok. That’s fair. But there ways to measure those things too. I find my practice to be highly beneficial for me and for others. True spirituality is supposed to make you more kind toward yourself and toward other people. Think of the Dalai Lama, of Louise Hay (just watch on Youtube) or of mother Theressa, of someone like Pope Francis etc. Spiritual people are kind and they increase the feeling of peace and serenity around them. When Lao-Tzu walked into a village people would suddenly become more peaceful and compassionate. That’s the energy radiating from those people. It is almost measurable. I’ve met such people when I was very young and let’s say convinced about my own truths. They will usually just laugh at you. Talk to you in a kind way, like an elder brother talking to a toddler. They won’t blame you. They won’t criticize you or engage in a battle of words with. They just have this “inner peace” in them. So that’s how you know. Go and watch a short of Sadghuru for instance. You’ll know what I mean.

On the other hand. The “Brainiac” type of believer. Will talk and blame. And talk. And criticize. And make you feel guilty. And issue warnings, scare you. Terrorize you. And talk and talk with an incredible amount of self-confidence. And you will feel stresses and confused. Than angry. Than happy. And when it’s over you’ll just feel tired. As if you were in a traffic jam for 2 hours. This is just the difference between one who knows he/she knows nothing and the one who seriously thinks he knows everything. Many people are able to make the difference.

And biggots know that too you know. Once I even gave my money to a guy like that. I don’t know how he did that. He just talked and talked and seemed so peaceful and mindful too than he asked for my help. And I did. It took me 1 hour to realize that I had just been …ed.

But that the main criteria. Look for genuine humility. You don’t impose highly obstructive laws on half of you population if you hace a fraction of humility in you. So that’s one of my main criteria. The other is the name. Or the tradition. In India there are some schools of Yoga with a line of teachers that go back to the 18th century at least. And in the West there are people who are bestseller authors. Many of them are bestsellers for a reason. Like Deephak Chopra for instance. So that’s how I proceed.

So the guy above… Just don’t be impressed. Not everyone who looks like a monk is a monk

[Angrboda]

You could have just said that his interpretation of submission was lacking something. Invoking pseudoscientific concepts in support of your chosen interpretation does you no favors.

[The Grand Nudger]

The dalai lama, mother theresa, and the current pope aren't actually examples of good and kind people, so they probably won't convince me that your chakra magic works to make folks better. As for obstructive laws....OFC you do. If you have humility, you may recognize that gods wishes and gods laws take primacy. That they're obstructive is just your ego talking, what you want...what's getting in your way. There are no end to the examples of this from the abrahamic magic books. Generally speaking, when people fail to recognize it, god deepak chokes ya.

[Leonardo17]

Angrboda:  Chakras are the energy centers in the body. They are used in many spiritual traditions in the world and in things like acupuncture, reflexology and Ayurveda medicine. There are 7 main chakras + hundreds of minor ones. The seven main chakras are located in several places on your spinal column starting from your crown Chakra on your head top, until the lowest root Chakra in your tail end. In reality the only thing that matters is that these are in balance. Thus you can be a root or second chakra person but a very healthy / happy individual. There is no problem with that.
 
A good portion of the people in our era are said to be first chakra persons because it is the energy of the root (lowest) chakra that is predominant in them. These people have a matter / physicality oriented perception. So spiritual concepts (and philosophical abstract concepts) are difficult for them to understand. It just doesn’t resonate with them. When they are asked “What’s in common between a fish and a crow?” they will tell you that there is nothing common about them and that the fish can be eaten but that the crow cannot be eaten. Because their intelligence is highly practical. They don’t really have notions like “aquatic animals”, “animals with cerebral capacity” etc. Their understanding for art is limited. They tend to value most earthly pleasures like eating, drinking and sex. Their greatest fears are also physical. I’m not calling them Cro-Magnons, but these are just the attributes of the root chakra that is present in all of us. So if this is predominant (the most active chakra) than this will be one of our key characteristics.
 
The second chakra (sacral chakra) dominated persons are also egocentric persons but their energy is higher. Although they are engaged in self-rewarding pursuits, they have a good mind in terms of understanding more abstract and philosophical concepts. They are the typical person time in our era who like individualism and still have a potential for spiritual concepts.
 
Level 3 (solar plexus and higher) is described as the energy level at which the individual is ready for spiritual knowledge. In fact it is this type of individual that most spiritual teachers are seeking.
 
After that, these energy levels are described as the levels of spiritual enlightenment. So I won’t go into the details. But this is the main cause of the varying levels of spiritual teachers. At seven and above, the soul no longer reincarnates. This person leaves the world and truly becomes “no more” or becomes “one with the universe. These are just some basic concepts.
 
What I told Grand Nudger is that, today’s mankind as a whole is on the path of becoming a more second chakra dominated entity. We like abstract concepts and we are able to understand those notions when we really want to (at least that’s true for a good majority of us). But people between the 7th century BC and the 7th century AD are described as a more first chakra level society. Literacy was 1%, people lived and died in their villages, art was the luxury of aristocrats, serfdom / slavery was widespread. So other than the intellectual capacity, they even lacked the prana energy to have any type of spiritual understanding. This was true for the majority of mankind. But there was always exceptions to the rule and I think that’s why there were spiritual teachings even at that stage of our evolution.
 
   But anyway. The energy I described above is not able to put spiritual / metaphysical knowledge of any part of his/her brain. So they naturally distort the original teachings in order to make it fit into their own levels of understanding. So messages that were supposed to be messages of inner peace and social harmony gradually became the exact opposite (like the “one God one Emperor doctrine of Emperor Constantine that had nothing to do with the “My Kingdom is not of this earth” of Jesus of Nazareth). Or that’s the way I see it if you like

Grand Nudger: I don’t think it’s my Ego. One thing is for sure. We are in this thing only once. Just once. So if someone like Mother Theresa decides to be a living example of inner peace and compassion in this world and if that person is successful the way she was successful I think that person would still have a smile on his / her lips at the moment of death. But, as I said before, if you bow down to some restrictive rules without knowing about it’s purpose just because someone told you that “this is our rule”. Then what a loss.
 
There is this 2001 movie called “Samsara” that treats this subject. A Buddhist monk thinks he is about to end his journey on earth. When in fact he discovers that he isn’t. These are all matters of spiritual growth.
 
And that’s another issue. The software in us has always its own interest. So it feels attracted to some elements. What I call “evolved spirits” (and all of this is: “If I understood correctly”) they are souls with many incarnations or are souls with few incarnations “who have seen enough” so their stage is to be like the Dalai Lama and to leave this level of existence to go on to the next stage (which is infinity itself).
 
So my argument stands. That’s the sort of thing I / we believe in. People with high Muslim population like in West-European countries know this. As they are interacting they know that even their religion is about values, spiritual concepts, family traditions that bring people together etc. etc. So almost everyone knows that a Muslim and an Islamism is two different things.
 
My new argument here is that there are also a lot of unbalanced individuals in this world. Normal people don’t believe it until they meet one. There are people in this world who are completely twisted in their minds. Not like the bank robber who does something for money. But there are people who want to take your money and also want to harm you for some twisted reasons inside their brains. I hope you never meet someone like that. I did. Of course I believe that the great majority of people in this world are basically good. But There are bad people in this world too.
 
   So that why my new argument is that no one should have like a pass to do whatever he wants because he calls himself a Muslim. Making a hate speech because Harry of Whales killed Taliban fighters while he was on active duty should be punishable by law. And (I am talking for Europe), I don’t even see why people with links to any type of İslamist group is even allowed to enter Europe in the first place. And my argument is that even the term “islamist” is a wrong term. 1) There is no such thing. The Quran says “Your religion is for you, my religion is for me”. SO in order for there to be “Islamism”, that ideology or whatever needs to be disconnected from the Quran. Which is another absurdity or in cohesion.
 
And 2) as a person with a given type of belief system (which we may simply call deism if you like) I don’t agree that the Taliban or the IRI (and political Islamists of any type in this world) have anything to do with spirituality. And I am saying this as someone who knows many people with a more traditional understanding of Islam. And that’s why I said that if you were in Western Europe you have neighbors, colleagues etc. who are practicing Muslims, talk to some people and see for yourself that some of them are simply different than the others.
 
And whatever type of Islam it is you are practicing. If you don’t have some basic elements that simply have to be present in you in order to even be a spiritual person, or a person who believes in a higher reality, than I think it is my right to say that such people are not Muslims (not even religious or spiritual if you ask me). And this is based on my personal experience a a spiritual seeker. That’s how I would put it

[The Grand Nudger]

You don't think it's your ego, they don't think it's their ego...you each think it's each others egos...and you're engaged in a dispute about what a god did or didn't say, according to each of you. Nothing less than the ownership of True Religion™ and who is or is not a True Muslim™ at stake. At any rate, you hit the nail squarely on the head..if you're bowing down to rules because someone told you too...even if that someone is a god...that's just dumb.

So why, again, does it matter what a god does or doesn't say about x?

You argue that there is no islamism or no islamists in the face of mere reality..and this would be disturbing, were it not for the rest of the post being littered with chakra garbage. More like expected, at this point. I'll repeat again that the short version as it looks to me - every post in this entire thread- is that you've made an effort to memory hole anything that you might find shitty about islam so that you feel comfortable in your heterodox beliefs. An improvement over orthodox beliefs, surely...but not much curiosity, honesty, or consistence. Not a single ounce of reason.