Theists are Insecure

[Voltair]

Godschild, I understand the idea of personal experience but, as I think you have stated in your posts, you know that your own personal experience doesn't really help any of us here. I believe some members here used to have things that they thought were personal experiences with divine but under further investigation determined that they were not.

I suppose I wonder what more can we do if we are honestly looking and still can't make ourselves believe that it is true. I know you say accept on faith but if I said I believed in God, no matter how hard I tried, I would know that I do not. I cannot force myself to believe something that I do not think is true... maybe after psychologically damaging myself I could but deluding myself on that level is a tall order. I am not trying to insult anyone but for those of us here who are unconvinced we can't force faith either.

So ultimately, assuming we are being honest, are we to be punished for something that seems to be out of our control. I don't know if you will say it is in our control but I fail to see how. I have seen the arguments, in fact I used to use some of them to argue with atheists, and I simply do not think they are valid. What else can I do besides lie? Of course lying would in of itself make me damned in God's eyes anyway so there really isn't a way out for me or many others here either.

[Shell B]

Seriously, guy. I told you what book it was in. Anyway, not all say burnt offering. http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?sea...chtype=all

Hmmm, This one says "sacrifices and burnt offerings." I guess Moses thought there was a difference. You are smarter than Moses?

Also, Jesus was a sacrifice that was not burnt. God did not ask for that. We already discussed it. Stop being obtuse. Whether he was treated like a sacrifice or not is irrelevant. He was a sacrifice.

[chi pan]

Hmmm, This one says "sacrifices and burnt offerings." I guess Moses thought there was a difference. You are smarter than Moses?

really, that's all you've got? tell me you're joking. that's nothing. and like i said, he was not treated by humans as such. i gave you 3 reasons against your claim and you didn't address any of them.

[Whateverist]

I understand what your saying, no evidence, no God, belief without reason is no belief. However God has not chosen to work in a way that you think He should.

This makes me wonder how accepting of God you would be if certain beliefs you hold about God turned out to be wrong. Suppose God spoke to you and said "listen, I hate to disappoint you but you've really got to lower your expectations. For mortals, there can be no existence outside a body. All of that is bunk. I'm powerful, but not 'all powerful' which I'm sure you realize is a logically flawed concept. There is a kingdom of heaven within and while you're there it will be sublime, seemingly timeless. Nothing lasts forever. You've got to stop taking it all so personally. The universe will go on and so will consciousness of it. Everything is fine. Just play your part. Everything is part and collectively it is Me, but I'm nothing without you. It's like the old Beatles tune 'You are me and I'm in you and we are all together.. koo koo ka choo .. or somthing like that'. Dig?"

What would you do? What will you do?

the unexplained is still unexplained regardless of the amount of knowledge man has.

Well put. No matter what theories we put forth, natural or supernatural, the essential mysteries remain mysterious. God-did-it, big-bang-inertia or just random events all have the same epistemic value.

[Godscreated]

I understand what your saying, no evidence, no God, belief without reason is no belief. However God has not chosen to work in a way that you think He should.

This makes me wonder how accepting of God you would be if certain beliefs you hold about God turned out to be wrong. Suppose God spoke to you and said "listen, I hate to disappoint you but you've really got to lower your expectations. For mortals, there can be no existence outside a body. All of that is bunk. I'm powerful, but not 'all powerful' which I'm sure you realize is a logically flawed concept. There is a kingdom of heaven within and while you're there it will be sublime, seemingly timeless. Nothing lasts forever. You've got to stop taking it all so personally. The universe will go on and so will consciousness of it. Everything is fine. Just play your part. Everything is part and collectively it is Me, but I'm nothing without you. It's like the old Beatles tune 'You are me and I'm in you and we are all together.. koo koo ka choo .. or somthing like that'. Dig?"

What would you do? What will you do?

the unexplained is still unexplained regardless of the amount of knowledge man has.

Well put. No matter what theories we put forth, natural or supernatural, the essential mysteries remain mysterious. God-did-it, big-bang-inertia or just random events all have the same epistemic value.

Then I suppose I like you would not believe in a god that chose to work in such a way. I also would not trust myself to a god that had limited powers.
However I've chosen to believe and know God who is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. The god you describe is far to limited, my God doesn't expect me to play a part but, to be involved with Him in his work for mankind. He expects me to believe in the impossible because, He makes all things possible, omniscient you know.

For mortals, there can be no existence out side the body. All of that is bunk.

That's why we are called mortals but, with the omnipotent God of creation all things are possible and how thankful I am.

[Shell B]

Hmmm, This one says "sacrifices and burnt offerings." I guess Moses thought there was a difference. You are smarter than Moses?

really, that's all you've got? tell me you're joking. that's nothing. and like i said, he was not treated by humans as such. i gave you 3 reasons against your claim and you didn't address any of them.

Yeah, kind of like how you quoted 1/3 of my post and said "Is that all you've got?" Every bit of Christian dogma revolves around Jesus being a fucking sacrifice. Without that, you have shit. You're really willing to deny your beliefs to cover up one stupid statement? By the way, you said "god" didn't want human sacrifices, not "humans." How humans treated Christ is irrelevant to your argument.

[chi pan]

Yeah, kind of like how you quoted 1/3 of my post and said "Is that all you've got?"

i quoted that much b/c that is what i was directly addressing. i did not mention the rest b/c it was evidence supporting your claim (which i looked at by the way). i also addressed the last part of your post even though i did not quote it.

Every bit of Christian dogma revolves around Jesus being a fucking sacrifice. Without that, you have shit. You're really willing to deny your beliefs to cover up one stupid statement? By the way, you said "god" didn't want human sacrifices, not "humans." How humans treated Christ is irrelevant to your argument.

yes, Jesus was God's sacrifice to us. how does this condone human sacrifice to God?

[Shell B]

i quoted that much b/c that is what i was directly addressing. i did not mention the rest b/c it was evidence supporting your claim (which i looked at by the way). i also addressed the last part of your post even though i did not quote it.

You quoted a portion of my post and then said "Is that all you have?" when it fucking clearly was only a portion of my response. The rest was evidence supporting my claim so you ignored it?!?! What the hell is your fucking problem?

yes, Jesus was God's sacrifice to us. how does this condone human sacrifice to God?

I swear you people do not read your Bibles. Jesus was the last sacrifice to God so humans would have to sacrifice no longer.

"For surely it is not angels He helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason, He had to be made like His brothers in every way, in order that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that He might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because He Himself suffered when he was tempted, He is able to help those who are being tempted" (Hebrews 2:16-18)

He was not sacrificing to people. It was for people. If not to god then to whom was Jesus making the sacrifice? Is there some other being threatening humanity and demanding sacrifices?

[chi pan]

The rest was evidence supporting my claim so you ignored it?!?!

no, i looked at it and concluded it's not enough to make your statement. just b/c moses says "sacrifices and burnt offerings" doesn't mean not all sacrifices they had were burnt. it also clearly says that they sacrifice animals, not humans. if i ignored anymore evidence please tell me.

I swear you people do not read your Bibles. Jesus was the last sacrifice to God so humans would have to sacrifice no longer.

oh he was a sacrifice to God? for what exactly? lets look at only THE MOST POPULAR VERSE IN THE BIBLE shall we?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

so did we give him as a sacrifice to God or did God give him as a sacrifice to us? and i think you're ignoring the fact that he was EXICUTED BY THE ROMANS WHO WERE NONBELIEVERS. how is this sacrificial tradition?
- i edited something b/c i mistyped

[Norfolk And Chance]

This makes me wonder how accepting of God you would be if certain beliefs you hold about God turned out to be wrong. Suppose God spoke to you and said "listen, I hate to disappoint you but you've really got to lower your expectations. For mortals, there can be no existence outside a body. All of that is bunk. I'm powerful, but not 'all powerful' which I'm sure you realize is a logically flawed concept. There is a kingdom of heaven within and while you're there it will be sublime, seemingly timeless. Nothing lasts forever. You've got to stop taking it all so personally. The universe will go on and so will consciousness of it. Everything is fine. Just play your part. Everything is part and collectively it is Me, but I'm nothing without you. It's like the old Beatles tune 'You are me and I'm in you and we are all together.. koo koo ka choo .. or somthing like that'. Dig?"

What would you do? What will you do?

Nothing - because it's just the ramblings of your mind, rather than god speaking.

You're absolutely fucked up, how's the galaxy babysitting going?

However I've chosen to believe and know God who is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. The god you describe is far to limited, my God doesn't expect me to play a part but, to be involved with Him in his work for mankind. He expects me to believe in the impossible because, He makes all things possible, omniscient you know

He sounds just like Santa to be honest. I mean Santa made impossible things (getting down approx 1 billion chimneys in 24 hours) become possible.