urge to pray - advice/help

[Epimethean]

BL, you are a very deluded fellow. Many here have been pointing out the utter fail of your satan premise, and have, in fact, turned it on you as a perfect foil. You have nothing going here. I can't even give you the strength of your convictions, because they are ludicrous.

[brotherlylove]

BL, you are a very deluded fellow. Many here have been pointing out the utter fail of your satan premise, and have, in fact, turned it on you as a perfect foil. You have nothing going here. I can't even give you the strength of your convictions, because they are ludicrous.

If you want to use the "satan foil", it needs to be logically coherent, and it isn't. If you say Satan is the greatest possible deceiver, then he could never do anything which would limit his ability to deceive. The greatest possibility of deception in every possible world is to be completely unknown. If he revealed himself in any way, he would no longer be the greatest possible deceiver and thus the "satan foil" is incoherent.

The concept of Satan has explanatory power, and describes why there is a such a vast variety of supernatural experiences and seeming confirmations of other gods, but only one true God. Thus, that there are authentic experiences that come from God, and authentic experiences that do not come from God. Regardless of what you believe, it answers the objection of people having genuine experiences of other gods and beings.

[Faith No More]

What you fail to realize is that the Satan explanation for the experience of other gods works just as well against your god. Allah is the one true god, and anyone that sees Jesus or Yaweh is just being deceived by Satan. See? It is impossible for you to refute that without relying on some sort of belief, i.e. the bible says differently.

[brotherlylove]

What you fail to realize is that the Satan explanation for the experience of other gods works just as well against your god. Allah is the one true god, and anyone that sees Jesus or Yaweh is just being deceived by Satan. See? It is impossible for you to refute that without relying on some sort of belief, i.e. the bible says differently.

It doesn't work, because you're getting Satan from the bible in the first place, and as I explained above, Satan wouldn't reveal himself voluntarily. You could make a case from Islam, because it also mentions Satan, but there is a good argument against Islam in the bible.

First, Islam is a bastardization of Christianity and Judiasm, written 600 years after the fact. There is basically no difference between Islam and Mormonism. They both have so-called prophets receiving extra-biblical revelations from angels, and they both wrote new books for the bible claiming their revelation trumps everything else. This kind of deception was predicted:

Galatians 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

More specifically, that neither Muhammed or Joseph Smith heard directly from God. If you don't hear from God you're not a prophet..that's what makes you a prophet in the first place. They only received revelations from angelic messengers:

2 Corinthians 11:14-15

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So, based on this I think it's reasonable to conclude that the bible is true over the quran.

[Faith No More]

'Satan' is just the name used in this argument, but any trickster god could be deceiving you. You have no proof that the bible isn't a message intended to fool you. You only have your belief that it isn't, which has no bearing on reality. You can't use an argument(trickster god creating false religions) as proof of your god if any religion can do it.

[Epimethean]

And strictly speaking, the concept of satan, and even the name, seems to come from Persia or India rather than the Hebrews at its earliest point. So it is doubly effective as a foil against an arrogant xtian to point out that the very concept he wishes to use as a weapon is really from a religion he does not accept. There is a double irony in this.

[genkaus]

An unknown enemy is far more dangerous than a misunderstood enemy. To reveal yourself to the world in any form instead of remaining forever hidden is to give up your greatest advantage and is the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

You are not making any sense. Why would being hidden be the greatest advantage. It could be an advantage, but why the greatest advantage?

Do you know how many people in history have been defeated by underestimated enemies? A lot. How many have been defeated by unkown enemies?

That's what you're doing right now.

It would seem so. It seems nothing would veer you from the path of Satan set upon by your bible to the path of righteousness.

Because God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

HE DID NOT.

That is a lie spread by Satan to deceive everyone. Think about it. Would god, the very epitome of justice, commit such a heinous act of injustice as to punish one person for sins of everyone else?

God will not forgive anyone who accepts - no reveres - such an immoral act as something good.

Forgiveness can't be earned, that's the point. Our righteous deeds are filthy rags before a Holy God.

That is exactly what Satan wants you to think. So that you would stop trying to earn forgiveness altogether and therefore, never get it.

The most heinous and corrupt sin is to reject Jesus Christ.

Thus spake Lucifer.

It has nothing to do with proving yourself; on our own, no one can pass that test. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

My heart weeps for you.

Oh lord, forgive this deluded child, for he knows not that the human mind is the most shining example of your divine glory and any insult to this divine creation of yours is an insult to you and your magnificence.

What am I saying? Do not forgive him. For he must learn that your forgiveness must be earned. Then and only then would this lost lamb finally be free of Satan's hold and his corrupting work - the bible.

We haven't done anything to deserve Gods love. It is because of the abundance of His love, and mercy, that we have the opportunity to repent and be forgiven.

---

BLASPHEMY.

How dare you accuse god of such injustice? Justice means giving to the person as he deserves. How dare you suppose that god's love would be given to you without you having done anything to deserve it?

How far has Satan corrupted you? Is there no distance you would not go not insult god, his holy magnificence and his holy creation.

It's based on the faulty premise that an unknown enemy is not more dangerous than a misunderstood enemy, which is patently false. It is not fantastic, it is simply ill-conceived.

Fool. Do you not realize that Satan cannot remain hidden. If he acts in the world, he will be known. The best he can do is to control how people see him. And he has done a magnificent job of it. He has the majority of world convinced that faith is the currency while dealing with god, not reason.

[brotherlylove]

You are not making any sense. Why would being hidden be the greatest advantage. It could be an advantage, but why the greatest advantage?

Do you know how many people in history have been defeated by underestimated enemies? A lot. How many have been defeated by unkown enemies?

Remember these words?: "Et tu, brute?" The most dangerous enemies are those you don't know are enemies. That is so obvious that to argue against it shows your desperation in trying to hold on to your illegitimate premise.

It would seem so. It seems nothing would veer you from the path of Satan set upon by your bible to the path of righteousness.

HE DID NOT.

That is a lie spread by Satan to deceive everyone. Think about it. Would god, the very epitome of justice, commit such a heinous act of injustice as to punish one person for sins of everyone else?

God will not forgive anyone who accepts - no reveres - such an immoral act as something good.

That is exactly what Satan wants you to think. So that you would stop trying to earn forgiveness altogether and therefore, never get it.

Thus spake Lucifer.

My heart weeps for you.

Oh lord, forgive this deluded child, for he knows not that the human mind is the most shining example of your divine glory and any insult to this divine creation of yours is an insult to you and your magnificence.

What am I saying? Do not forgive him. For he must learn that your forgiveness must be earned. Then and only then would this lost lamb finally be free of Satan's hold and his corrupting work - the bible.

BLASPHEMY.

How dare you accuse god of such injustice? Justice means giving to the person as he deserves. How dare you suppose that god's love would be given to you without you having done anything to deserve it?

How far has Satan corrupted you? Is there no distance you would not go not insult god, his holy magnificence and his holy creation.

Fool. Do you not realize that Satan cannot remain hidden. If he acts in the world, he will be known. The best he can do is to control how people see him. And he has done a magnificent job of it. He has the majority of world convinced that faith is the currency while dealing with god, not reason.

I wouldn't have thought this was clever even when I believed Christianity was untrue.

'Satan' is just the name used in this argument, but any trickster god could be deceiving you. You have no proof that the bible isn't a message intended to fool you. You only have your belief that it isn't, which has no bearing on reality. You can't use an argument(trickster god creating false religions) as proof of your god if any religion can do it.

It has a bearing on reality, it is backed up by scripture and my own experience. I also have 2000 years of history and 2 billion people who affirm my belief. You could say flying unicorns from mars are deceiving me but you don't have any grounds for saying it, and it isn't exactly a persausive argument when you are contending for things you don't actually believe yourself.

[Faith No More]

The grounds for me saying it is you using it as an argument. Sure, I don't believe it, but when you use an argument for your religion that works just as easily against it, I will us it against you.

[genkaus]

If you want to use the "satan foil", it needs to be logically coherent, and it isn't. If you say Satan is the greatest possible deceiver, then he could never do anything which would limit his ability to deceive. The greatest possibility of deception in every possible world is to be completely unknown. If he revealed himself in any way, he would no longer be the greatest possible deceiver and thus the "satan foil" is incoherent.

Why would remaining unknown be the greatest possible deception? If no one knows it exists, then not telling anyone that is exists is not exactly a great deception. No, a great deception would be lying about what does not exist and convincing everyone that it does.

By revealing himself in a form other than his true nature (i.e. revealing himself as weak and ineffectual), Satan has not only been able to deceive you about himself, he has also deceived you about god. If he'd remained unknown, the only thing he'd have been able to deceive you about would have been himself and that wouldn't be enough. The deception he has perpetrated through the bible is even greater.

The concept of Satan has explanatory power, and describes why there is a such a vast variety of supernatural experiences and seeming confirmations of other gods, but only one true God. Thus, that there are authentic experiences that come from God, and authentic experiences that do not come from God. Regardless of what you believe, it answers the objection of people having genuine experiences of other gods and beings.

But you see, there are no supernatural experiences that do not come from Satan.

God created everything exactly like he wanted. Every law of nature is according to his will. So why would there be any situation where god would have to go against his own will and break his own laws - laws that he put into place. Any experience you have of god or any other supernatural being is deception perpetrated through Satan.