Post number 1

[Doubting Thomas]

Didnt you know tom? The header migh say "atheist forums" to you, but to a devout cultist and mythology believer that very same header says "Christians, please save us. We are desperate to know Christ".

I'd been starting to wonder if Christians use a different browser or something, one which instead of having the Atheist Forums logo up there says instead "People who desperately need to hear the word of God and who have all sorts of questions about it."

I've never once gone to a Christian forum and offered to answer Christians' questions about atheism, but I'm getting to where I might start doing that!

[Drich]

Oh please with the goddamn fucking "if you have any questions feel free to ask me" bullshit again! Pardon my language, but I'm so tired of Christians coming here thinking we have no idea about what Christianity is all about. Crap, I'd been one for the first 30 years of my life, so I think I know Christianity inside and out. And if I really did have any questions, I'd seek out a Christian forum or some Christians in real life and go ask them.

Perhaps that was the problem, you have been a "christian" your whole life and never got to know God.

Being apart of christianity does not make one a Christian. That title is not something we elect for ourselves by our deeds or adherence to the rules of a given religion. It is a gift given to us by God based on the condition of our heart.

That means you could have gone through the motions of the christian religion for 50 years, and still never know God.

See this is what I mean by clarity. You thought/think christianity is something you have complete control over. When in fact the only thing you can control concerning Christianity is what you do with your Sundays. God determines who is save by faith, we are not saved by going through the motions of a given religion.

---

Drich, I've oftened wondered, if there is a God who created the universe,

I am not sure what you are asking. If there is a God then God created the universe.

why is there God instead of nothing?

Why is there a God instead of nothing.. I don't know why nothing exists.. or doesn't exist, or exists not to exist..

---

Drich in your mind what would a univerese without god look like?

To my mind it would look like this one.

An empty plain of exist or non existence depending on your philosophy.

[Faith No More]

Perhaps that was the problem, you have been a "christian" your whole life and never got to know God.

Being apart of christianity does not make one a Christian. That title is not something we elect for ourselves by our deeds or adherence to the rules of a given religion. It is a gift given to us by God based on the condition of our heart.

Do you not realize how arrogant and condescending these statements are? Anyone who isn't a Christian anymore wasn't really a Christian, but you, you are definitely the real deal. You know nothing of anyone's background beyond the fact that they used to be Christians and the only thing you can say is 'you weren't doing it right.'

Weren't you the one saying something about dignity and respect? Where is the respect in your judmental assumptions?

[Drich]

Can you give an example of what "real evidence" looks like outside of time? Perhaps then I might be able to provide something for you.

You see this rock?

It's fucking real. Need more evidence?

The rock had a beginning correct? Then it is tied to linear time. I asked for an example of what would proof of something outside of linear time would look like.. i am sorry but Your Rock does not qualify.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Can we demonstrate any object that is "outside of linear time"? Nope. Is there any reason to believe that anything could exist outside of linear time? Not really? Does demonstrating such objects outside of linear time help the atheist argument? Nope.

Why are you wanting proof of this? (I can't be arsed to read your previous page full of waffle)

[Drich]

So let them think they've won. What does it matter to you?

This is an atheist forum so although theists are welcome, atheists should always win - it is our home ground!

Look I am not looking for an argument nor am i here to seek and save anyone who does not want to be saved. i completely respect your positions no matter why you believe them. In short I am not here for you specifically. If there is 1 who has honest questions among you then know i am here for them and will endure what is necessary for that persons benefit.

So if you do not want to have a religious discussion then do not engage one of my threads or my comments. I promise unless you ask me a question or comment on one of my threads/posts I will not take the time to read anything you have written. Matter of fact unless i am directly engaged with a question/challenge or someone posts to one of my threads then i generally will not comment on anything anyone has written.

I am not here to change anything. I am simply here to answer questions and respond to those seeking clarity.

[Drich]

Do you not realize how arrogant and condescending these statements are? Anyone who isn't a Christian anymore wasn't really a Christian, but you, you are definitely the real deal. You know nothing of anyone's background beyond the fact that they used to be Christians and the only thing you can say is 'you weren't doing it right.'

My comment condescending or not reflects the words of Christ on the matter. We all need to understand "Christianity" is not a series of ritualistic behaviors, that forces God into allowing someone into Heaven. That is why the Idea of a death bed confession is foolishness. Don't get me wrong there are biblical examples of those who confess on their death "Bed" and make it to Heaven, but Christ also is quick to point out that they only make it in like one escaping from a fire; with little more than the cloths on their back. Not an Ideal way to spend eternity.

Weren't you the one saying something about dignity and respect? Where is the respect in your judgmental assumptions?

I don't believe i mentioned anything about dignity or respect, however i have shown it in my efforts, thus far and will make a great effort to continue to do so. That said, What you label as Dignity and your understanding of respect will never take precedence sound biblically based teaching.
"Peer pressure" and the expectation for me to "fall in" will never be a consideration of anything I speak or write on.

I offer clarity and understanding, not pink bows and Lolly pops. With clarity and understanding will come conflict, and an opportunity for resolution. What often stands between conflict and resolution is Pride. One will not ever be able to offer a conflicting view point without hurting dignity/respect, if pride is a factor. IF Pride is indeed an issue for you then know it is not up to me to resolve it for you. i can offer tools to help you resolve matters of pride, but ultimately all of the heavy lifting will be done by you. Until then know that just because a scriptural teaching is an affront your personal pride, does not mean what is being said is shaped or aimed at attacking the unbelievers dignity nor is it an intentional effort to disrespect anyone. It is simply a relevant view point to the conversation we are having.

For example:
Passages like Mt7 are apart of the scriptural teachings I am here to pass along. This teaching says (By the words of Christ Himself) Not everyone that claims to be a Christian is indeed a Christian. Then He goes on to a List of items that only the elite could perform even in His day. Even then the "miracles" were not a true indication of the persons Christianity.He finishes the teach by telling us what is the key to Christianity.

---

Can we demonstrate any object that is "outside of linear time"? Nope. Is there any reason to believe that anything could exist outside of linear time? Not really? Does demonstrating such objects outside of linear time help the atheist argument? Nope.

Why are you wanting proof of this? (I can't be arsed to read your previous page full of waffle)

My point exactly. If you do not know what something outside of linear time would look like or be, then how could you identify it if i provided proof for God's existence outside of our understanding of time?

If you yourself do not know what to look for, and are freely willing to admit this, then again how will you know that what i provide as "proof" will not be what you are looking for? So then why ask for proof if you could not recognize it, even if He were in the room with you?

[Norfolk And Chance]

Don't get me wrong there are biblical examples of those who confess on their death "Bed" and make it to Heaven

Are there!?! You mean you have proof? This is what we've all been waiting for! Who confessed on their death bed and made it into heaven? How do you know they made it into heaven?

but Christ also is quick to point out that they only make it in like one escaping from a fire; with little more than the cloths on their back. Not an Ideal way to spend eternity.

So heaven, not the real version - but the "Lite" version with not as many perks? How you know this to be true? Or is this just more stuff you read in some book?

I offer clarity and understanding, not pink bows and Lolly pops. With clarity and understanding will come conflict, and an opportunity for resolution.

You rate yourself don't you?

What often stands between conflict and resolution is Pride.

What normally stands between conflict and resolution is normally proof

One will not ever be able to offer a conflicting view point without hurting dignity/respect, if pride is a factor. IF Pride is indeed an issue for you then know it is not up to me to resolve it for you. i can offer tools to help you resolve matters of pride, but ultimately all of the heavy lifting will be done by you. Until then know that just because a scriptural teaching is an affront your personal pride, does not mean what is being said is shaped or aimed at attacking the unbelievers dignity nor is it an intentional effort to disrespect anyone. It is simply a relevant view point to the conversation we are having.

Meaningless, self gratifying, word salad.

My point exactly. If you do not know what something outside of linear time would look like or be, then how could you identify it if i provided proof for God's existence outside of our understanding of time?

Even if you were right, and we couldn't understand or possibly recognise a timeless god, because he's out of our box so to speak - this does not mean that he is any more likely to be real - let's face it, you (modern day theists) just made this up to get around the fact that you have zero evidence for your invisible friend.

If you yourself do not know what to look for, and are freely willing to admit this, then again how will you know that what i provide as "proof" will not be what you are looking for? So then why ask for proof if you could not recognize it, even if He were in the room with you?

If I cannot recognise it then neither can you, so you cannot offer proof based on that premise. So no change there then, no proof based on any premise ever thought of in history.

Unless you are saying you have proof that you recognise, well in that case I should too, proof will be self evident. Have at it, let's hear your "proof"?

There are 7 billion people on earth right now, how many billions have lived since somebody invented god?

Not one has come close to proving his existence. Big red flag there.

Just in case you try and switch it and say "you cannot disprove god either", let me just say that I don't need to prove the non existence of a non existent being because I'm not making a claim he's real, and of course there is zero evidence for his existence. Co-incidence? I absolutely fucking doubt it.

[Phil]

Perhaps that was the problem, you have been a "christian" your whole life and never got to know God.

Being apart of christianity does not make one a Christian. That title is not something we elect for ourselves by our deeds or adherence to the rules of a given religion. It is a gift given to us by God based on the condition of our heart.

That means you could have gone through the motions of the christian religion for 50 years, and still never know God.

See this is what I mean by clarity. You thought/think christianity is something you have complete control over. When in fact the only thing you can control concerning Christianity is what you do with your Sundays. God determines who is save by faith, we are not saved by going through the motions of a given religion.

Did you even read the New Testament? Maybe you missed Romans? Maybe you read romans but missed chapter 10? Maybe you read chapter 10 but your selective vision missed verse 13?

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

Or are you just an asshole?

[Whateverist]

So if I made the pronouncement that I was the "alpha and the omega" and wrote it down in a book like the bible, then I too could be outside of time and eternal?

It depends on when you wrote the book.

How long did it take before the bible was old enough to verify the eternal god of the bible to your satisfaction?


Kidding aside, I don't think theists are stupid and neither do I think it takes a genius to be an atheist. You seem like a bright enough fellow and you've been a good sport about answering my facetious questions. So if you're here to try to save me then I may as well try to return the favor.

For me that doesn't involve converting you to atheism. The more important thing is that you become an agnostic theist. If you can meet me that far you'll be alright in my book. I'm thoroughly agnostic about my atheism. No proof whatsoever, but also no belief. I find theists that can say the same exceedingly rare. Occasionally you'll find one that can say they realize there is no proof but their belief is so strong that they accept it on faith alone, even if not every word of the bible is true.

More often Christians get into circular reasoning about the bible as though it represented a contract with God. You know the type? They'll acknowledge a leap of faith but once taken they then stand firmly on the bible as though it were the Rock of Gibraltar. Some give the impression that their faith is more in the bible than it is in God. You can probably tell I think less of these guys. I mean, it's their choice of course, and it's theirs to make but it just seems less noble to me somehow.

So where do you stand on the question of gnosticism? Did your leap of faith land you in a place of dead certainty? Or do you continue to rely on faith to contend with the uncertainty which intellectual modesty requires .. unless perhaps you've had a close encounter of God himself.