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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 16, 2012 at 5:06 am
It's an interesting question. My main reply would be I need a bit more info. Such a dilemma would never really occur in my view, and I'm quite happy to refute any practical example you give me. Though I can certainly see how a few deluded fools might think such a dilemma was in front of them, they would be tragically mistaken however.
There is actually a whole novel by that most agnostic of Catholic authors, by Graham Greene, that follows this dilemma. The Heart of the Matter follows a man's belief that he is committing the ultimate sacrifice by damning himself to ensure the happiness and salvation of others. Worth checking out if you're interested...
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 16, 2012 at 4:55 pm
(This post was last modified: April 16, 2012 at 5:02 pm by C Rod.)
(April 14, 2012 at 8:26 am)Rhythm Wrote: Scapegoating is a "sacrifice", doesn't change it from being scapegoating CRod. If there were no sacrifice it wouldn't be called scapegoating. Just random cruelty. As it is, scapegoating is senseless, ignorant, and vile but never random. There is always some end that those engaged in it hope to achieve. Just so happens that I take issue both with scapegoating and the ends that believers in scapegoating hope to achieve by it.
I've seen sacrifice and scapegoating (and both by human beings, no invocations of fairy tale bullshit required), one can be done without invoking the other. Your god could have sacrificed it's will, for example, without scapegoating some poor creature.
"The father wants to free him and can even have it happen but son should refuse and accept his punishment." -Which, transferring this analogy back to the source, would mean refusing the "gift" or "sacrifice" of scapegoating christ. This is what I've been beating my head against a wall to explain in the first place, that this "gift" is unacceptable. For some reason you are capable of realizing this easily when the object is anything other than your myths. Again, this sort of faith crushes us in so many ways.
The sacrifice was God's son. How do you know that by those means he did not sacrifice his will? "there is know greater love than that, to lay down your life for your friends" sacrificing or scapegoating?
Accepting punishment that man deems worthy for said crime=acknowledging you are a sinner and asking for forgiveness.
(April 14, 2012 at 5:42 pm)genkaus Wrote: (April 13, 2012 at 7:05 pm)C Rod Wrote: What is the sentencing for 3 counts of manslaughter? The son has to pay that price for his mistake, i never said he didn't. The father wants to free him and can even have it happen but son should refuse and accept his punishment. Yea when you assume something about something you don't understand and believe it to be true because you want to, you come off very unflattering and ignorant.
But the same is not applicable where god is concerned? When its time for god to judge, people do not have to pay the price for their own mistakes - they can accept Jesus and go scot-free. But your point here is well-made. Any moral and self-respecting man would spit on the offer your god makes and accept the consequences of his own actions.
The price is humble acknowledgement that you are a sinner and asking of forgiveness. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you will and doesn't mean you meant it. It seems you haven't done it, it must be that price.
"Its not what your looking at that matters, its what you see." -Henry David Thoreau
♪Oh, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get Lost in my mind Lost in my Mind Yes, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get lost I get lost Oh, I get♪ -The Head and the Heart
"You are wise, witty and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading this sort of stuff.”- Frank Crane
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 16, 2012 at 5:29 pm
(April 16, 2012 at 4:55 pm)C Rod Wrote: The price is humble acknowledgement that you are a sinner and asking of forgiveness. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you will and doesn't mean you meant it. It seems you haven't done it, it must be that price.
So, according to you, saying "It's my fault, I'm sorry", is the same as being tortured for eternity? By that logic, whether the judge's son says "I'm sorry I ran over your kid" or he actually goes to jail for 5 years, it should be the same thing to the family. Why stop at the judge's son? Every criminal should be set free as long as he says he's sorry and asks for forgiveness.
Disgusting.
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 16, 2012 at 6:21 pm
(April 16, 2012 at 5:29 pm)genkaus Wrote: (April 16, 2012 at 4:55 pm)C Rod Wrote: The price is humble acknowledgement that you are a sinner and asking of forgiveness. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you will and doesn't mean you meant it. It seems you haven't done it, it must be that price.
So, according to you, saying "It's my fault, I'm sorry", is the same as being tortured for eternity? By that logic, whether the judge's son says "I'm sorry I ran over your kid" or he actually goes to jail for 5 years, it should be the same thing to the family. Why stop at the judge's son? Every criminal should be set free as long as he says he's sorry and asks for forgiveness.
Disgusting.
We must pay for the crimes we commit and say were sorry and its my fault. You do both. Every criminal doesn't ask for forgiveness or say they're sorry. Do you know why because they don't feel it. It has to be true and we can never be certain of truth, i wonder if there was one that was certain.
"Its not what your looking at that matters, its what you see." -Henry David Thoreau
♪Oh, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get Lost in my mind Lost in my Mind Yes, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get lost I get lost Oh, I get♪ -The Head and the Heart
"You are wise, witty and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading this sort of stuff.”- Frank Crane
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 17, 2012 at 1:38 am
(This post was last modified: April 17, 2012 at 1:51 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(April 16, 2012 at 4:55 pm)C Rod Wrote: The sacrifice was God's son. How do you know that by those means he did not sacrifice his will? "there is know greater love than that, to lay down your life for your friends" sacrificing or scapegoating?
Accepting punishment that man deems worthy for said crime=acknowledging you are a sinner and asking for forgiveness.
"Thy will be done" ring a bell?
You have absolutely no idea what scapegoating is do you? Way to spend pages arguing against a word you have absolutely no concept of. At this point I realize exactly why you don't feel that this whole vicarious redemption business is scapegoating...........Here, I'll help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat
You don't have any choice in whether or not you accept the legal ramifications of any given act. There are those who turn themselves in, what they have done is illegal. Illegal does not equal sinful. Turning one's self into the authorities is not an apology (nor is it an acknowledgement of "sin", or request for forgiveness). Epic fail, again.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 17, 2012 at 3:39 am
(April 16, 2012 at 6:21 pm)C Rod Wrote: We must pay for the crimes we commit and say were sorry and its my fault. You do both. Every criminal doesn't ask for forgiveness or say they're sorry. Do you know why because they don't feel it. It has to be true and we can never be certain of truth, i wonder if there was one that was certain.
So a sinner should go to hell even if he repents and accepts Jesus. He has said he is sorry, but its time to pay for his crimes as well by going to hell.
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 17, 2012 at 2:55 pm
How about the souls of another 1000 theists of another religion?
![[Image: trkdevletbayraklar.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i128.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp161%2Fazmhyr%2Ftrkdevletbayraklar.jpg)
Üze Tengri basmasar, asra Yir telinmeser, Türük bodun ilingin törüngin kim artatı udaçı erti?
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 17, 2012 at 5:35 pm
(This post was last modified: April 17, 2012 at 5:38 pm by C Rod.)
Jesus gave recognition to all the reasons we do sin. His scapegoating/sacrifice is not to distract us from the reasons, its to save us because we can not stop sinning. Its merciful. You might want to fix your own problems but some cant be fixed. It is a gracious gift. And with the knowledge of his recognition to the reasons we can abide by his sacrifice.
Turning oneself in is not the same but owning up to the punishment and admitting to the crime you did without trying to squirm your way out of it with legal loopholes, is. Live according to truth.
Genkaus
He pays for his crimes here, if not, and is truly sorry and is able to have a last second true repentance then it is up to God to pass judgement.
"Its not what your looking at that matters, its what you see." -Henry David Thoreau
♪Oh, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get Lost in my mind Lost in my Mind Yes, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get lost I get lost Oh, I get♪ -The Head and the Heart
"You are wise, witty and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading this sort of stuff.”- Frank Crane
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 17, 2012 at 5:38 pm
(This post was last modified: April 17, 2012 at 5:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
So I don't need jesus to fix all of my fixable problems? No shit, master of the obvious. Now how does scapegoating "fix" the "unfixable" ones? What "unfixable problems" is scapegoating suitable for?
Most of your post, platitude btw, meaningless shit. Sounds good to you though doesn't it? More of that crushing.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dilemma for theists!
April 17, 2012 at 5:41 pm
(April 17, 2012 at 5:38 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So I don't need jesus to fix all of my fixable problems? No shit, master of the obvious. Now how does scapegoating "fix" the "unfixable" ones? What "unfixable problems" is scapegoating suitable for?
Most of your post, platitude btw, meaningless shit. Sounds good to you though doesn't it?
The ability to stop.
"Its not what your looking at that matters, its what you see." -Henry David Thoreau
♪Oh, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get Lost in my mind Lost in my Mind Yes, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get lost I get lost Oh, I get♪ -The Head and the Heart
"You are wise, witty and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading this sort of stuff.”- Frank Crane
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