Did Mohammad exist?

[KnockEmOuttt]

What's scariest about this question is the fact that if it's being asked about Jesus, it comes with Discovery Channel specials around Easter time. When it's asked about Muhammad, it comes with death threats.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

a few years ago I heard that someone was put in jail for eating in public in Ramadhan

It's 40 years since I lived in Malysia,there, but yes that did also happen there. Today Malaysia will still occasionally put high profile Muslim apostates in prison.


Context: When I was last KL, in 2000, the religious police arrested some bloke for WORKING in a place in which alcohol was served. The judge threw the case out of court,and tore strips off the religious police.

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March 2008: Woman jailed for worshiping teapot.

By Thomas Bell, South East Asia Correspondent

6:40PM GMT 04 Mar 2008

A sharia court in Malaysia jailed a woman for joining a "tea-pot worshipping" cult.

Bulldozers tear down giant religious teapot


Kamariah Ali, a 57 year old former teacher, was arrested in 2005 when the government of the Muslim majority country demolished the two story high sacred tea pot and other infrastructure of the "heretical" Sky Kingdom cult.

Full article:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...a-pot.html

[Minimalist]

thanks for the video, how the hell did I never hear about this?

what I find really disturbing is when later in the video he said that Muslims in America WANT Sharia law when there's only Saudi Arabia in the ME that practices it, & most Muslims (almost everyone I know is) I know are glad we don't have such laws, for a progressive society (America) to still have those people, it is disturbing, I think the only law we have in Bahrain that resembles Sharia law is inheritance & divorce, & women rights activists have been fighting the latter for the better part of the last decade.

there is a popular saying around here that says converts are "more Muslim" than born Muslims, since almost every single Muslim I know practices just what he finds convenient, what fueled such a saying is probably seeing converts on TV, their women wear a complete Hijab while women here ignore it.

but I digress, I would really love to read his book, I don't think I'd be able to buy it here, is it being sold online as an e-book?

Here.

http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7281809/R...i__epub%29


You will need the epub or mobi reader. I understand that Calibre will work also.

Don't get killed for reading it, my friend. Maybe download it through a proxy server like hidemyass.com


I just finished it. It's amazing stuff.

[Rayaan]

Even for the sake of argument, if Muhammad didn't exist, then how did Islam become a world religion and then dominate many parts of the world without a leader guiding its people? Who did the Muslims learn from? Who or what caused the spread of Islam in such a short amount of time which can be directly linked to Muhammad's time and shortly after his death?

The thing is that Islam had already spread throughout many regions of the world before the death of Muhammad and he was also well-known at the time. There are biographies about the man written by both Muslim and non-Muslim historians with such an accuracy that they contain many specific dates and events which occurred during his lifetime such as where he was born, how he died, who were his wife and children, what battles he fought, what he said, where he slept, etc. He had a lineage and he had children as well as friends, family members, cousins, uncles, caliphs/successors, etc. They all lead back to a single man, i.e. Muhammad, and that's why I think that it is much more unlikely that the mention of this Muhammad over and over again was some "other" Muhammad and not the one being talked about every single time.

I didn't hear Robert Spencer address any of those important points about the existence of Muhammad. Instead, he only picked out some controversial events about Muhammad's life while taking certain things from Ibn Ishaq's book to support them and then magnifies them in a way just so that he can say that "maybe" Muhammad didn't exist. Just "maybe," but nothing else beyond that.

Also, see: Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources (by Martin Lings)

[Tearjerker]

@Rayaan, so did Christianity but that doesn't prove anything. History is written by conquerors and often changed at their leisure. But, for some sick and twisted reason, I believe he existed I just can't blindly dismiss his existence even if I don't believe everything that's considered historical fact as facts and evidence of what he was all about. But he was a man, and a leader, that I accept, rest of the holier than thou mumbojumbo I do not. I do not think of him as a prophet, he was just another man exploiting the ma's basic needs, sex, violence and the sense of bondage to his own benefits whatever those benefits were. I refuse to believe he did not exist because It offends me and further humiliates me to be the victim of a nation fallen to a fictional myth.

Islam was spread to other regions not because that people in those region voluntarily accepted Islam, but it was forced upon them through war and savagery, through the fear of death and pillage and rape. Much like Christianity during the era of church dominance. Remember what Christians did to Europeans, specially Scandinavians? Muslims did all that Iran to Spain. War is the keyword here.

PS: and by the way I corrected this line for ya "who where his WIVES and children." he also had a lot of concubines.

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Either you fast in Ramadan, or you better die before drinking in public. This is very fresh I dunno which part of this forsaken country it's happened but it happened.

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[Rayaan]

@Rayaan, so did Christianity but that doesn't prove anything. History is written by conquerors and often changed at their leisure. But, for some sick and twisted reason, I believe he existed I just can't blindly dismiss his existence even if I don't believe everything that's considered historical fact as facts and evidence of what he was all about. But he was a man, and a leader, that I accept, rest of the holier than thou mumbojumbo I do not. I do not think of him as a prophet, he was just another man exploiting the ma's basic needs, sex, violence and the sense of bondage to his own benefits whatever those benefits were. I refuse to believe he did not exist because It offends me and further humiliates me to be the victim of a nation fallen to a fictional myth.

Those are your own opinions, but I cannot prove that any of that is wrong either.

At least we both believe that he existed.

Islam was spread to other regions not because that people in those region voluntarily accepted Islam, but it was forced upon them through war and savagery, through the fear of death and pillage and rape. Much like Christianity during the era of church dominance. Remember what Christians did to Europeans, specially Scandinavians? Muslims did all that Iran to Spain. War is the keyword here.

Islam may have spread through war and savagery (to a certain extent), but that was never required nor encouraged unless it was provoked by the other side. The important thing to know is that Muslims are strictly prohibited to start a war and/or fight against non-Muslims except for the purpose of self-defense. An Islamic state is not allowed to fight non-Muslims who are not hostile to Islam, who do not oppress Muslims, or try to convert Muslims by force from their religion, or expel them from their lands, or wage war against them, or prepare for attacks against them, as the Quran says, "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4:90).

In fact, according to what I know, the Prophet Muhammad granted the citizens of an Islamic state the freedom to practice their own religion as long as they sign a pact of non-aggression and pay taxes as demanded by the state. During that time, there were many examples of Christians, Jews, and other religious communities flourishing under Islamic rule without being forced to live as Muslims. You can find more information about this in a book entitled "The Jews of Islam," by Bernard Lewis.

PS: and by the way I corrected this line for ya "who where his WIVES and children." he also had a lot of concubines.

Yes, but that doesn't show anything negative about him. Why? Because the fact that Muhammad had multiple wives does not mean that he was sexually hyperactive nor anything like that. On the contrary, that has nothing to do with it because most of the wives that he had were widows whom he married during times of war to protect them. The latter life of the Prophet consisted of years of wars for the emerging Muslim nation, when Muslims had to fight in self-defense to protect their lives and their religion. Consequently, hundreds of his companions were killed, leaving behind widows and orphans without anyone left to care for them. So, that's why Muhammad set an example for the surviving companions by remarrying the widows in order to support them.

Either you fast in Ramadan, or you better die before drinking in public. This is very fresh I dunno which part of this forsaken country it's happened but it happened.

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Well, I do not know what is the story behind that picture nor who did that and/or what really happened. So, I have no comments on that right now.

[FallentoReason]

Rayaan, I've always wondered... Isn't it in your best interest to defend what is being said about Jesus by us so that you can defend Mohammad's beliefs? I think it logically makes sense that if Jesus wasn't who Mohammad said (because of non-existence etc) then Mohammad stops being reliable/divinely inspired.

[downbeatplumb]

March 2008: Woman jailed for worshiping teapot.

By Thomas Bell, South East Asia Correspondent

6:40PM GMT 04 Mar 2008

A sharia court in Malaysia jailed a woman for joining a "tea-pot worshipping" cult.

Bulldozers tear down giant religious teapot


Kamariah Ali, a 57 year old former teacher, was arrested in 2005 when the government of the Muslim majority country demolished the two story high sacred tea pot and other infrastructure of the "heretical" Sky Kingdom cult.

Full article:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...a-pot.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e69-GO4bYLM

[Minimalist]

The thing is that Islam had already spread throughout many regions of the world before the death of Muhammad and he was also well-known at the time.

I know this is hard for you, Rayaan, ( about as hard as it is for xtians to hear that their godboy never existed either ) but this is a story about power and the formation of empire. Muhammad, which is a title as well as a name, does not appear for 60 years after the beginnings of the conquest of the Arab empire. The peoples who were attacked never heard of the koran or islam or mohammed. They do record who was conquering them, calling them saracens or such.

The Byzantines and Persians bled each other white in battles in the late 6th century. The Arab tribes moved into the vacuum. There are coins minted by early Arab rulers which bear a cross. Spencer also spends a lot of time going through the hadiths and showing the political nature of those. They were used to inflate or deflate other power blocs.

Like xtianity in the 4th century the religion was a creation of powerful rulers who decided they needed a common religion to hold together a disparate empire.

The book is here.

http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7281809/R...i__epub%29

You'll need epub or mobi to read it although I understand that Caliber works as well.

[The Grand Nudger]

Even for the sake of argument, if [Jesus] didn't exist, then how did [Christianity] become a world religion and then dominate many parts of the world without a leader guiding its people? Who did the [Christians] learn from? Who or what caused the spread of [Christianity] in such a short amount of time which can be directly linked to [Christs] time and shortly after his death?

Fixed that for you.