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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 2:25 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 2:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 2, 2012 at 3:10 am)Godschild Wrote: For those who may not have read the other thread, in it I said that the only free will man has is to love God or not to love God, and outside of that all bets are off, simple really if one will search through the scriptures and find out what God says.
Unless god knows which will do which, (also in your ghost stories GC), in which case they don't get that option either.
God says nothing, btw.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:13 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 3:15 pm by IATIA.)
(August 30, 2012 at 2:57 am)idunno Wrote: To borrow the hypothetical from GodlessGirl's thread, You have to choose between an apple an an orange. So if this all-knowing God knows you are going to pick the apple but you choose the orange you have just negated Gods omniscience. If you are unable to pick the orange then you have negated free will.
This is an ambiguous statement. Just because this "all-knowing god" 'knows' what choice may be made, in no way forces the choice any more than I force you to drive on the right side of the road rather that cross the median into oncoming traffic.
In effect, this "all-knowing god" implies 'Laplace's demon', which would negate any free will, including god's.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:15 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 3:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Care to explain how one might have knowledge of a future choice without it's being set then?
(September 3, 2012 at 3:13 pm)IATIA Wrote: (August 30, 2012 at 2:57 am)idunno Wrote: To borrow the hypothetical from GodlessGirl's thread, You have to choose between an apple an an orange. So if this all-knowing God knows you are going to pick the apple but you choose the orange you have just negated Gods omniscience. If you are unable to pick the orange then you have negated free will.
This is an ambiguous statement. Just because this "all-knowing god" 'knows' what choice may be made, in no way forces the choice any more than I force you to drive on the right side of the road rather that cross the median into oncoming traffic.
Bolding mine.
It isn't the "knowing" that forces the "choice" it's the "that it can be known". Nevertheless, this is a strange comparison, did you know whether I would drive on the right side or cross the median? If you did, could I have done the opposite of what you knew? If I did, what -exactly- did you know to begin with?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:19 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 3:21 pm by idunno.)
(September 3, 2012 at 3:13 pm)IATIA Wrote: (August 30, 2012 at 2:57 am)idunno Wrote: To borrow the hypothetical from GodlessGirl's thread, You have to choose between an apple an an orange. So if this all-knowing God knows you are going to pick the apple but you choose the orange you have just negated Gods omniscience. If you are unable to pick the orange then you have negated free will.
This is an ambiguous statement. Just because this "all-knowing god" 'knows' what choice may be made, in no way forces the choice any more than I force you to drive on the right side of the road rather that cross the median into oncoming traffic.
In effect, this "all-knowing god" implies 'Laplace's demon', which would negate any free will, including god's.
I think we're in agreement. I don't hold that foreknowledge removes free will. 
Scratch that. Your two statements appeared contradictory. I'm arguing against the notion that omniscience removes the possibility to do otherwise and therefore removes free will.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:21 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 3:22 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Good for you, why don't you hold that? Can you imagine a scenario in which there is foreknowledge and yet this foreknowledge turns out to be incorrect?
Care to share that scenario?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Rythm, I'm going to be honest here. You're on my ignore list because of the responses I've seen come from you. However, your name keeps popping up after mine so I'll answer this question and offer you the opportunity to once again place yourself in my good graces 
No, I don't see how God's foreknowledge could err.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Let us try this.
If I know that you know that I will pick the orange over the apple, then I can pick the apple and invalidate your "all-knowing" power.
As to the 'median crossing', based on history, the fact that you are here, you do not have the propensity to drive headlong into traffic and I can say that you will not do this the next time you get on the road. However, now that you know i know, you could prove me wrong and drive across the median.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:30 pm
Interesting, but we're in no position to know what God foreknows.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:32 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 3:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 3, 2012 at 3:27 pm)idunno Wrote: Rythm, I'm going to be honest here. You're on my ignore list because of the responses I've seen come from you. However, your name keeps popping up after mine so I'll answer this question and offer you the opportunity to once again place yourself in my good graces
No, I don't see how God's foreknowledge could err.
Who asked you anything about a god? So, these predictions are always accurate, at what point might you be able to "choose" B - instead of the expected A? I asked why, how, not what you believed. You said that foreknowledge did not seem to you to rule out free will, I'm just looking for an example of foreknowledge that is in error. Some prediction that we could choose to nullify - and then you tell me that there aren't any?
Put me back on the list (it'll save you the trouble of responding to me).
(September 3, 2012 at 3:27 pm)IATIA Wrote: Let us try this.
If I know that you know that I will pick the orange over the apple, then I can pick the apple and invalidate your "all-knowing" power.
Then I wasn't actually precognitive was I, since I didn't see that coming.
Quote:As to the 'median crossing', based on history, the fact that you are here, you do not have the propensity to drive headlong into traffic and I can say that you will not do this the next time you get on the road.
Oh, you mean guessing..not knowing..but guessing.
Quote: However, now that you know i know, you could prove me wrong and drive across the median.
Could I? You haven't explained how I could do so (except, perhaps, by means of explaining that you are not precognitive).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:40 pm
Never! You can never do ANYTHING contrary to what God knows! MUahahahaha!
Buut I've spent this whole thread explaining why that's not a problem.
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