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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:41 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 3:41 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It is for me, I like to think that I make choices. I was also under the impression that the idea of choice and consequence is important for certain myths. I'd call that a problem.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Can you show me where my argument against the PAP errs then, my sharp toothed friend?
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:46 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 3:19 pm)idunno Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 3:13 pm)IATIA Wrote: This is an ambiguous statement. Just because this "all-knowing god" 'knows' what choice may be made, in no way forces the choice any more than I force you to drive on the right side of the road rather that cross the median into oncoming traffic.
In effect, this "all-knowing god" implies 'Laplace's demon', which would negate any free will, including god's.
I think we're in agreement. I don't hold that foreknowledge removes free will. 
Scratch that. Your two statements appeared contradictory. I'm arguing against the notion that omniscience removes the possibility to do otherwise and therefore removes free will.
Not really. There are certain 'cause and effect' relationships that can allow one to 'know' what will happen. In the case of 'free will', knowing what happens does not force the choice anymore that knowing of the existence of gravity forces an apple to hit the ground.
However, for this "all-knowing god" to 'know' what choice I will make, requires more than simple cause and effect. This "all-knowing god" must know everything about all the particles that lead to the chemical reaction that will determine my ultimate decision to choose either the apple or the orange. Again, this 'knowledge implies 'Laplace's demon' which negates any 'free will' because the domino effect of the cause and effect of all the particles that ultimately lead to my decision is predictable, knowable and not chaotic or random.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:53 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 3:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 3, 2012 at 3:45 pm)idunno Wrote: Can you show me where my argument against the PAP errs then, my sharp toothed friend? Christ...another one. It's a shame too, this is one of my favorite subjects. Will there ever be a point at which you stop asking for explanations you've been given? If so, sure, we can chat, if not -meh, I know where the door is.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:55 pm
AITIA, I don't really know where you stand as you seem to be in disagreement with Rythm and myself.
In any case, this brand of omniscience your forwarding is dependent on strict determinism. However, the popular interpretation of QM at the moment is indeterminacy.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:55 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 3:57 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No, it isnt, determined probabilities. Try again. The trouble with QM, is that we are at a loss to explain how these probabilities are determined, even though they seem to be exceedingly regular and predictable..yay.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:57 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 3:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 3:45 pm)idunno Wrote: Can you show me where my argument against the PAP errs then, my sharp toothed friend? Christ...another one. It's a shame too, this is one of my favorite subjects. Will there ever be a point at which you stop asking for explanations you've been given? If so, sure, we can chat, if not -meh, I know where the door is.
No I am most certainly not Jaqing off
. I've presented an argument, show me where I've erred. Please. 
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 3:58 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 3:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
In that by removing consideration of any alternative possibility free will is not required, and in that your explanation breaks down the very moment any alternative is presented. You're avoiding the issue, not presenting an argument to resolve it. Bravo.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 4:02 pm
Omniscience by no means entails that you can't consider alternatives. You simply can't choose them. Appreciate the applause.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 4:03 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 3:55 pm)idunno Wrote: AITIA, I don't really know where you stand as you seem to be in disagreement with Rythm and myself.
I do not believe in free will at all. If the free will is part of the body, then all decisions are made by particle and chemical reactions. If the free will is separate from the body then this implies a 'soul' and as I am an atheist...
Quote:In any case, this brand of omniscience your forwarding is dependent on strict determinism. However, the popular interpretation of QM at the moment is indeterminacy.
For starters, 'popular' does not make it a fact.
I have not yet noticed a response as to the quality of choices. Even though I know that god knows that I will choose the orange over the apple and I choose the apple, I still want the orange.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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