Plato's Allegory of the Cave

[Darkstar]

Is anyone here familiar with Plato's Allegory of the Cave? We discussed it in english class the other day, and I found it to be strikingly applicable to religion. You can find an overview here: Allegory of the Cave.

It appears to explain everything at first, but then comes a puzzling discontinuity. If the cave (and the lack of undrestanding associated with it) are what breed the 'goddidit' notion, then why are so many people still there, even after we've discovered that Zeus doesn't cause lightning, Posiedon isn't responsible for tsunamis, and that the earth isn't flat? They keep forgetting that the difference between the bible and mythology is that the latter has been acknowledged to be a bunch of morally and scientifically outdated fictional stories, whereas the former hasn't. They took Zeus pretty seriously back then, and yet modern theists can dismiss their claims immediatly, because a lot of people will agree with them. I used to think "wow, Zeus and Posiedon, etc. kill so many people for not worshipping them, and turn people into animals and bugs when they say something out of line. I'm sure glad Yahweh doesn't do stuff like that." ...right

[Rayaan]

[Mystic]

Yeah I believe some sort of relationship exists between are relative views of morality, greatness, beauty, honor, ethics, etc, and an absolute reality which is the source.

I like the allegory of the cave.

[Faith No More]

It appears to explain everything at first, but then comes a puzzling discontinuity. If the cave (and the lack of undrestanding associated with it) are what breed the 'goddidit' notion, then why are so many people still there, even after we've discovered that Zeus doesn't cause lightning, Posiedon isn't responsible for tsunamis, and that the earth isn't flat?

It's been awhile, but I believe the answer to that is the fact that after leaving the cave and seeing the sun, the character involved chooses to return to the cave. The truth can be blinding and unsavory, so it is just easier for humans to wallow in delusion, which is one of the overall points of the story.

Edit: It's been nearly fifteen years since I studied this, so I may be way off.

[Mystic]

You know, when it comes to the question of what is justice, I believe we are slowly but surely getting out of the cave and into the Sun.

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Also, I think that everyone has a beauty/greatness, that is specific to them, and then it can grow....it's like a hidden talent, a unique sword everyone has.

I think this world challenges us all, but gives an opportunity to bring out our potential. That potential is linked to God, but I believe everyone will have their unique inner talent/sword/beauty/honor...

In case of analogy of the cave, it seems everyone's "Sun" is the same, but I disagree, I think we are linked to the same Sun, but the light that enlightens our souls, is unique to each soul, and differs. That light is muddled into shadows by the wrong thing society teaches but I would say is the Sun in the analogy.

It's universal at the same time unique. People's personalities share common things yet unique. If you know what I mean.

The original "light" and "shinning sun" in each soul, is specific to that soul, but has a link to the divine.

There is different beauties yet they all stem from one universal beauty that encompasses all beauty.

I feel seeing different souls is like seeing different manifestations of God's beauty.

[genkaus]

Is anyone here familiar with Plato's Allegory of the Cave? We discussed it in english class the other day, and I found it to be strikingly applicable to religion. You can find an overview here: Allegory of the Cave.

It appears to explain everything at first, but then comes a puzzling discontinuity. If the cave (and the lack of undrestanding associated with it) are what breed the 'goddidit' notion, then why are so many people still there, even after we've discovered that Zeus doesn't cause lightning, Posiedon isn't responsible for tsunamis, and that the earth isn't flat? They keep forgetting that the difference between the bible and mythology is that the latter has been acknowledged to be a bunch of morally and scientifically outdated fictional stories, whereas the former hasn't. They took Zeus pretty seriously back then, and yet modern theists can dismiss their claims immediatly, because a lot of people will agree with them. I used to think "wow, Zeus and Posiedon, etc. kill so many people for not worshipping them, and turn people into animals and bugs when they say something out of line. I'm sure glad Yahweh doesn't do stuff like that." ...right

I think the point Plato was trying to make is that the allegory of cave is applicable to religion, but not in the way you reasoned. I don't think that it is particularly applicable to religion or atheism.

Plato's point was that all of us humans are the people living in that cave. The things we perceive as real i.e. literally everything around us - even the ideas in our minds, are not actually real but are simply shadows of the real things. The real "perfect" forms exist in some other higher plane - that is the crux of Platonic Idealism. The problem with that is, within the allegory, the bound person has no knowledge of this real 3-d world. In fact, he doesn't even have any inclination that what he sees is a shadow. And yet Plato, who to all intents and purposes is also bound looking at the shadows, has somehow divined not only that this 3-d world exists but also what's in it?

This theme is found in a lot of religions. Like in Christianity, the perfect higher plane is replaced by heaven or god who is perfect and everything else is an imperfect reflection. The motivation behind preaching this is easy to understand. If you want someone to swallow your bullshit, you have to first negate what they know. And the easiest way to do that is by invalidating their only source of knowledge - the world around them. Once you have convinced them that they are looking at the shadows, they'd accept anything you tell them about the 3-d world.

I disagree with your interpretation of the allegory - namely that the religious doctrine is the shadow and atheists are the people who have seen the real world - for a completely different reason. Basically, I don't see that there is anything chaining the people and forcing them to look only at the doctrine. They are free to look away, free to see the real world and yet they don't.

[Red Celt]

The person who leaves the cave is the philosopher who has seen the true meaning of things... and can never be captivated by the mere shadows again.

Theists are the ones who have never left the cave, and they are content with the shadows.

[Mystic]

Coming out of the cave, can be said coming out of what you think you are due to false perception of society, to what you really are.

Something that scares me, is how we look at the people of the past, and their morality, and we look at them negatively.

When we come out and see the sun, how will see ourselves?

Perhaps it's a grace from God that we are designed so we will be not see it, till we ourselves evolve out of the cave so we would have no shame.

[genkaus]

It's been awhile, but I believe the answer to that is the fact that after leaving the cave and seeing the sun, the character involved chooses to return to the cave. The truth can be blinding and unsavory, so it is just easier for humans to wallow in delusion, which is one of the overall points of the story.

Edit: It's been nearly fifteen years since I studied this, so I may be way off.

I think you are a bit off. Within the allegory (or atleast the video) the man returns not because the truth is blinding and unsavory, but because he finds it fascinating and wants to share it with the rest of the prisoners.

---

You know, when it comes to the question of what is justice, I believe we are slowly but surely getting out of the cave and into the Sun.

---

Also, I think that everyone has a beauty/greatness, that is specific to them, and then it can grow....it's like a hidden talent, a unique sword everyone has.

I think this world challenges us all, but gives an opportunity to bring out our potential. That potential is linked to God, but I believe everyone will have their unique inner talent/sword/beauty/honor...

In case of analogy of the cave, it seems everyone's "Sun" is the same, but I disagree, I think we are linked to the same Sun, but the light that enlightens our souls, is unique to each soul, and differs. That light is muddled into shadows by the wrong thing society teaches but I would say is the Sun in the analogy.

It's universal at the same time unique. People's personalities share common things yet unique. If you know what I mean.

The original "light" and "shinning sun" in each soul, is specific to that soul, but has a link to the divine.

There is different beauties yet they all stem from one universal beauty that encompasses all beauty.

I feel seeing different souls is like seeing different manifestations of God's beauty.

A perfect demonstration of what I was saying.

[The Grand Nudger]

Coming out of the cave, can be said coming out of what you think you are due to false perception of society, to what you really are.

Something that scares me, is how we look at the people of the past, and their morality, and we look at them negatively.

When we come out and see the sun, how will see ourselves?

Perhaps it's a grace from God that we are designed so we will be not see it, till we ourselves evolve out of the cave so we would have no shame.

Well, we also see people of the past as noble, heroic, and good. It doesn't seem too presumptuous to suggest that we may see our selves (as relics of the past) with the same mix of positive and negative value judgements...whatever they may one day be.