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RE: There is no god or gods!
October 1, 2012 at 9:17 pm
(October 1, 2012 at 7:54 pm)IATIA Wrote: The problem with those that believe in a 'universe creator' is that they feel there must be a purpose to all of this existence and their god gives them a purpose.
If god is infinite, then what purpose could there possibly be for creating a finite universe? What possible enjoyment or gain could there be for an infinite being?
The god of creation Wrote:They think, therefore, I am.
I would argue that purpose is fundamentally as meaningless for the religious as it is for atheists. Here's why.
Humans, regardless of their religious affiliation, all share the basic motive of seeking to maximize the quality of their existence (i.e. our own well-being) and minimize their suffering, and human empathy inclines us to wish the same upon others. It can be very strongly argued that people believe in and worship God only because he offers a pretty good option for optimum existence. Eternity in loving serenity is a powerful point of well-being to pursue, while the agony of eternal hell is surely a promise of suffering worth avoiding. However, if the God of the universe were actually an evil overlord who created the universe and the people in it so as to inflict suffering on them, and one of his "angels" revolted in order to protect humanity from his tyranny, I daresay we would instantly abandon all dedication to our creator and worship that benevolent rebel instead, because he's benevolent. Children do not respect their parents when their parents are abusive. Employees don't respect their bosses when their bosses are against them. People don't want purpose in and of itself, or they would be satisfied with it even when it caused suffering. And I mean suffering overall, not suffering in the short term, which people will absolutely accept for the sake of having a better existence in the long run (such as enduring tribulations on earth for a reward in heaven). But people aren't satisfied with harmful purpose. Purpose is only good if it's a good purpose (redundant sounding, I know). This proves that we have an idea of what good is before we ever begin considering it in light of our reason for being here, and of religion in general. And it turns out that a sense of purpose is worthless outside of that context.
By the way, I'm not making a value claim. I'm not saying we should value maximizing human well-being. It's a matter of fact. We do value it. Period. It's built into us, whether we like it or not (which we do, of course), and any moral notion we can claim, religious or otherwise, is in light of that value.
If you can think of one that isn't, please enlighten me, but I think it will be shockingly easy to equate the word "moral" with "conducive to human well-being (or that of conscious creatures)."
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RE: There is no god or gods!
October 1, 2012 at 9:42 pm
(October 1, 2012 at 9:17 pm)will_alltogether Wrote: However, if the God of the universe were actually an evil overlord who created the universe and the people in it so as to inflict suffering on them ...
How could a god be evil or good. This would require desire and we still have the question of "What could god possibly desire?".
Superman II Wrote:Ursa: You are master of all you survey.
General Zod: [bored] So I was yesterday. And the day before.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: There is no god or gods!
October 1, 2012 at 9:51 pm
(This post was last modified: October 1, 2012 at 9:52 pm by will_alltogether.)
(October 1, 2012 at 9:42 pm)IATIA Wrote: (October 1, 2012 at 9:17 pm)will_alltogether Wrote: However, if the God of the universe were actually an evil overlord who created the universe and the people in it so as to inflict suffering on them ...
How could a god be evil or good. This would require desire and we still have the question of "What could god possibly desire?".
I'm saying that even if God did desire something, we would only even care if it benefited us.
"What could God possibly desire?" simply suggests that a question of our purpose is irrational (and arrogant).
My point is that we're not even interested in the answer itself, so the question of our purpose is irrelevant.
Also, the "malicious overlord" statement works the same without the word evil (though evil is undoubtedly what we would end up calling him, even though he'd have given us our 'purpose').
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RE: There is no god or gods!
October 1, 2012 at 11:10 pm
(This post was last modified: October 1, 2012 at 11:12 pm by IATIA.)
May perhaps, but I have a difficult time with god in any scenario. Attempting to give any personality or virtue (good or bad) to a god is difficult.
For sake of argument, you are god. You can do anything, but you know the end result of anything you do. You can create an infinite number of universes, but you know the end result of of every universe, every soul, every particle, every energy wave, everything.
There would need to be a desire to create in the first place, but you can never achieve satisfaction. There is no surprise, no one to show it to, except your creations, but you created them and their response will be everything you expect ... Because you created them and you know everything. There is no gain, no surprise, no purpose for a god. (I guess that is why it is such a mean despicable son-of-a-bitch)
I know we are both atheists and we are just bouncing non-existent bullshit back and forth off our heads, but hey, what the hell ...
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: There is no god or gods!
October 1, 2012 at 11:13 pm
Ohhh, I just thought of something. Does god know what he will do? Sure, he knows the outcome of his actions, but does he already know all of the actions that he is going to make in the future? If so, does this mean that he doesn't have free will?
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
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RE: There is no god or gods!
October 1, 2012 at 11:34 pm
(October 1, 2012 at 11:13 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Ohhh, I just thought of something. Does god know what he will do? Sure, he knows the outcome of his actions, but does he already know all of the actions that he is going to make in the future? If so, does this mean that he doesn't have free will?
 hock:
That ought to shake up some theists.
Take that! 
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: There is no god or gods!
October 11, 2012 at 2:34 pm
(October 1, 2012 at 8:32 pm)spence96 Wrote: I see your comments after Ive written stuff and what i said was talking about my stuff but i never saw your stuff lol. im the worst comment-maker. but also your comments seem to be repeating what you said to previous people, so apparently we are all arguing in a circle. So im going to have to not use the forum. Aye, same here I think
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RE: There is no god or gods!
October 11, 2012 at 3:50 pm
I think almost all of us atheists have some measure of agnosticism in a strictly literal sense. But, why insist on this? How many atheists (or agnostics, for that matter) actually believe there is anything approaching a significant fraction of a chance that any gods might even possibly be real? If your answer to this is "not me", then ask yourself what good is accomplished by insisting on appending your lack of belief with this caveat. It does, in the strictest sense, suggest a strong fiber of intellectual credibility, and this is a laudable thing. However, it also ignores the fact that theism is a legitimate threat to the advancement (indeed, perhaps the very existence) of mankind. I think it is not wrong to categorically deny the existence of all deities, and the credibility of all theistic religions as a result, simply because the chance of doing so and being wrong is so insignificantly small it would be a waste of time trying to apply a number to it. Any existing deity is no more or less likely to be real than any deity one could possibly imagine (and one must assume that a virtually infinite number of distinct deities could be imagined).
I think we owe it to ourselves, and our species, to take a practical stance of complete atheism until theism is relegated to insignificant minority status worldwide. Once that happens, then we can afford to take the leisure of being philosophical and semantic about literal agnosticism. Right now, we have an threat to erode and our willingness to not entirely dismiss theism as horse shit is one of its strengths.
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RE: There is no god or gods!
November 4, 2012 at 6:09 am
I put "maybe" because that seemed the most accurate response. However, I still find a god to be about as likely as the FSM.
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RE: There is no god or gods!
November 12, 2012 at 11:01 am
it's funny this question was being asked in this 'atheist forum'.. i thought its a forum for people who doesnt believe in gods.. well i m new here..
i cannot answer u this question directly, because according to critical thinking , under argument of ignorance, we cannot assume we know the truth even when no one can prove it wrong, in another word, if no one can prove it right, it is not necessary wrong either.. so i would say i personally not believe in god.. god is just a powerful instrument to be used by rulers, its a tool to threaten its followers, to ensure people are doing good deeds or else they will receive punishments.. if u find out where n who created the mythologies of gods, u will know how stupid are human being to believe in such ridiculous stuff.. i believe very much in philosophy, i believe in atoms, in times n spaces, but sorry, not god..
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