The Insanity Machine (and the Notion of God)

[Creed of Heresy]

designed to induce fear... to adopt any kind of conclusion without question because you're afraid of infinite hell.

The thing is, the Bible does not allow you to adopt 'any kind of conclusion.' Faith alone saves. There is no action you can respond to the knowledge of hell with that will save you from hell. You must have faith that Jesus' sacrifice will rescue you from hell. No one will consider the existence of hell unless they have/accept the way out. This is human psychology-- hopelessness and 'infinite' torture are incomprehensible. We have never known utter hopelessness or infinity or a state like hell in which God is completely absent… love and all. Neither can one understand an absence of faith, hope or love (what hell is) unless they see the source of all three. To a nonbeliever, faith, hope and love do not exist so there is no concept of infinite hell, only an extreme form of physical torture, a supernatural extension to the natural world we know (which is unbelievable even to me). Because of this, faith in God and faith in the existence of hell must come at the exact same time, meaning there is no room for your fear of hell to drive you to madness. How do I know all this? Because I believe in hell and God and you believe in neither. Hebrews 11:1 says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith is my evidence. You may not understand. I pray you will receive the Holy Spirit who will open your eyes. You can pray also: “Dear God, help me to have faith in you.” Jesus died so that you might enter the circle of experiencing true love, faith and hope. There's only one way to learn how to race--to get on the race track. Jesus is the door onto the track. Accept his sacrifice for your shortcomings (in loving, hoping, and having faith) and he will let you through.

Hope and love do not exist to the non-believer?

You're a fucking idiot.

[downbeatplumb]

So we don't know what Hope or Love are because we are godless heathens! What utter bollocks you utter Undeceived.

You speak of us as though we have lesser sensibilities than you, more developed emotionally, christians. What a lot load of arrogant rot

I love my wife and children deeply and you belittle it.

To a nonbeliever, faith, hope and love do not exist

I have seen some incredibly stupid and blinkered things written on this forum but this takes the cake.

and hell just separation from the god?

"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever." Rev. 14:10, 11.

Looks more like he watches the torture doesn't it.

[MultipleTentacles]

Exactly where do you get off telling me I have no faith? The atheists here, whom I respect, have said unequivocally that they have no faith, or they wouldn't be atheists. I have made no such claim. It is faith talking when I condemn the Book of Revelations. This evil tract, which is NOT any kind of "word of God," is the worst sort of blasphemy. Its sole purpose is to give angry and repressed nuns a stick to beat children with.

Of course the love and wrath of God come at the same time. I have experienced it. And I know exactly what you're doing. You're using the residual effects of a spiritual experience to condemn everyone who you have the slightest disagreement with. You're afraid to criticize the Bible, which was undoubtedly written by people, NOT God, and which clearly exhibits political motives. And until you're willing to criticize this book, and risk the wrath and love of God, all you'll end up doing is destroying people's faith by proxy. You'll be a proxy faith-destroyer for the professional faith-destroyers. The very people who put Christ on the cross.

I'm telling you, if Christ ever comes back, it'll be the Christians who put him right back up on the cross.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

The thing is, the Bible does not allow you to adopt 'any kind of conclusion.' Faith alone saves.

So the idea of free will (or the freedom to chose) is an illusion then, right? I mean, who would knowingly chose the path that is a dead-end?

There is no action you can respond to the knowledge of hell with that will save you from hell. You must have faith that Jesus' sacrifice will rescue you from hell. No one will consider the existence of hell unless they have/accept the way out. This is human psychology-- hopelessness and 'infinite' torture are incomprehensible.

yet you and other christians (theists per se) appear to have a monopoly on the description of hell; specifically that it is bad and we should avoid it.

How do you know this if its "incomprehensible"? What if hell is actually full of your favourite ice cream (that would still be bad for me as a diabetic, but you get the picture)?

We have never known utter hopelessness or infinity or a state like hell in which God is completely absent… love and all.

But you, apparently, do get it? Again, how do you know this is what it is, or that it exists?

Neither can one understand an absence of faith, hope or love (what hell is) unless they see the source of all three. To a nonbeliever, faith, hope and love do not exist so there is no concept of infinite hell, only an extreme form of physical torture, a supernatural extension to the natural world we know (which is unbelievable even to me).

"Judge not" and all that. But seriously, thanks for generalizing (incorrectly) how we all must feel because we don't agree with your particular narrow view of reality.

Because of this, faith in God and faith in the existence of hell must come at the exact same time, meaning there is no room for your fear of hell to drive you to madness.

gobbledygook.

How do I know all this?

Because it's pretty clear you're making it all up.

Because I believe in hell and God and you believe in neither. Hebrews 11:1 says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith is my evidence.

And what a poor substitute for really evidence it is.

You may not understand.

Actually, we understand perfectly. You hold yourself to account to an invisible deity that has no evidence (aside from faith) for its existance. We (non-believers) on the other hand, hold ourselves accountable to something much more real and important; ourselves, and each other, which can both be proven to exist,

I pray you will receive the Holy Spirit who will open your eyes. You can pray also: “Dear God, help me to have faith in you.” Jesus died so that you might enter the circle of experiencing true love, faith and hope. There's only one way to learn how to race--to get on the race track. Jesus is the door onto the track. Accept his sacrifice for your shortcomings (in loving, hoping, and having faith) and he will let you through.

Our eyes are wide open, actually. I contend that it is yours that are shut.