The price of attonement???

[Mystic]

Well you are using reasoning now, to show it is wrong, for God to not love unconditionally (ie. they are his creation, he is responsible). What I was stating, is that emotionally, it is hard to decipher. I think when we apply logic, we can come up with syllogisms that prove it's better to love unconditionally. Then again, perhaps there are contradictions within "properly basic morals" - hence, morality contradicts itself at it's very basic level and is all relative.

[Drich]

[/quote]

There's that incompetence rearing it's ugly head again. It isn't that I -couldn't- see love there Drich, I'm bluntly stating that there isn't any there to see. Now obviously, I can't blame you for not knowing much about me....but I've been married twice, I loved (and still love) both of my wives. Hell, I can't think of any girlfriend I've ever had that I didn't love.

Ahhh, Your right it was incompentance on my part as I assumed you knew that love (as being discussed here) had a broader range than the Eros Your describing with your many women.

I must say You are Right. The Love God has shown you, has nothing to do with Eros love or the passionate love man can have for a woman. Agape has nothing to do with Eros, and there by can be deemed 'not that kind of love.'

I have 5 children that I love dearly (one that I haven't seen or spoken to in in nearly a decade).

The same can be said of the 'Storge' you have for your Children.

I love my friends, even Lilly........,

or the Phileo you have for your friends.

...........you know where I don't see it?

Indeed I do. Your heart has been blinded to Agape. In that you do not see or even recognise the Love of God. Which brings me back to my orginal assertion. God has allowed your heart to be hardened to Agape, and the only way to know this love is to ask God to share it with you.

Now that my pervious inablity/incompentance to address your ignorance of the 4 basic forms of love, it is on you once again to develop an awareness or experience Agape for yourself. For as I said in the beginning there is nothing I can do to help you. Only God can share this love with you, and as per what He had written He will not, unless you first humble yourself before Him and simply A/S/K.

None of this love I see, or my seeing it all over the place, is anything I can even remotely describe as virtuous or somehow unique to me. It seems - in my experience - to be business as usual. Something that just runs on autopilot for the vast majority of us...which makes me wonder what sort of malfunction you're laboring under - that would cause you to invent a god with such a faulty psyche, such a cruel and contemptible concept of love.

So, you believe yourself to be the 'love standard' of the Human race.. That is really egotistically conceeded, but still funny.

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Still the same God.

It is interesting that, for the sake of maintaining blind faith in your belief, you completely skipped over the fact that god did change from one testament to the other.

How does 'changing testaments' (An academic note) have anything to do with the Character of God? (what is actually being discussed.)

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There's that incompetence rearing it's ugly head again. It isn't that I -couldn't- see love there Drich, I'm bluntly stating that there isn't any there to see. Now obviously, I can't blame you for not knowing much about me....but I've been married twice, I loved (and still love) both of my wives. Hell, I can't think of any girlfriend I've ever had that I didn't love. I have 5 children that I love dearly (one that I haven't seen or spoken to in in nearly a decade). I love my friends, even Lilly........, I have a large family, I love them too. In fact, I don't think I could throw a pebble without hitting some love. I'm surrounded by it, I find it easy to return, I see it everywhere...........you know where I don't see it? Uh huh. Again, try not to confuse your incompetence with my ability to see love where love is present. Your hideous little snuff tale just doesn't do it for me. I suppose this is just another shining example of where the words of your almighty god are utterly and completely hollow. How your spirit (and you) managed to fuck this one up...is frankly ,beyond me. To really drive this home. None of this love I see, or my seeing it all over the place, is anything I can even remotely describe as virtuous or somehow unique to me. It seems - in my experience - to be business as usual. Something that just runs on autopilot for the vast majority of us...which makes me wonder what sort of malfunction you're laboring under - that would cause you to invent a god with such a faulty psyche, such a cruel and contemptible concept of love.

Bravo for this post.

What sort of God is capable of creating humans who can love without condition, yet cannot (or refuses to) love without condition himself. A god capable of unconditional love is a god who has no need to create a hell, or anything like it. It is probably for that reason, perhaps above a lot of the empirical ones, that I feel certain that the Christian god is a miserably poor human invention.

I am a better lover than God. I suspect most people outside of the prison population (and a lot of them inside) are better lovers than God.

..And if God's love is not unconditional? After if we are indeed speaking of the God of the bible his love is very conditional. John 3:16 is the most popular verse that stipulates this condition. The condition being (That who ever believes... Will not perish, but have ever lasting life.)

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What are some of the names of those first centry magicians you speak of? Where is the documentation of their deeds? Where is the silence scrunity of the religious leaders of that day?

The magicians of the Pharaoh, the ones who did some magic in reply to the miracles of Moses.

You do know the events of moses happened sometime before Jesus right?

And I am sure you understand the story your have sited to know that those magicians were discredited, when confronted by the power of God, so please explain how this helps your arguement in any way.

And Jesus would have a limited time to do what he wants, and can't do everything he wants either. So what's your point?

That nothing Happens with out the approval of God. Meaning Jesus would not have been given the power of God if He were going against the will of the Father.

What about the Anti-Christ? Isn't he suppose to do some miracles?

Do you understand what the term means 'Anti-Christ?' The prefix Anti means "Not or apposed to." Not Christ or not our savior or apposed to our savior our God. Which will be allowed by God when the time comes. When the time does come His opposition will be as clear as those who oppose God on this message board.

Satan was playing a role, and is bound/limited to the degree he can play it. Christ power and authority Comes from the Father, He is doing the Father's will.

Originally, Satan was an Angel following will of God. I don't see how you have shown it's not possible the father allows Jesus to do what he wants for a limited time. Perhaps he is also given limits.

And I do not see how you do not understand this simply precept: I God is out trick then we have no hope. If however He is trust worthy (which every indicator we have been given says He is then those who do not seek attonement are the ones without hope.)

Or maybe nobody is doomed but they are getting fun out of people believing the notion (which seems silly). Or maybe it's a trial (testing people's intelligence, integrity, etc).

So Christ dies a horriable death so they all can have a laugh? Why not just laugh? why go through the trouble? I don't know where your from but around here it is beyond foolish to prank someone if it results in your own death.

Ok what I was trying to say is how the child is acceptable, but sex out of wedlock is unacceptable.

yes.

Here is the deal Drich. You are saying suffering as a punishment is a result of sin, from the perspective it's God implementing his wrath.

Actually no, the pope and subsequently every catholic may say that. The bible teaches us something differently. 'suffering' is a consenquence of sin, nothing more. The Only punishment of sin comes in the way of Death/Hell.

But you say suffering atonement cannot be as a result of sin, from the perspective it's God implementing compassion and forgiveness.

You don't see double standards here?

no, because as I said Attonement circumvents the only recorded punishment God has for sin.

Just say you don't agree with the latter, but don't make up things like "how can something acceptable be the result of something unacceptable?".

I do not agree with your whole assement, because 'suffering' has nothing to do with punishment.

[The Grand Nudger]

Ahhh, Your right it was incompentance on my part as I assumed you knew that love (as being discussed here) had a broader range than the Eros Your describing with your many women.

-I must say You are Right. The Love God has shown you, has nothing to do with Eros love or the passionate love man can have for a woman. Agape has nothing to do with Eros, and there by can be deemed 'not that kind of love.'

-The same can be said of the 'Storge' you have for your Children.

-or the Phileo you have for your friends.

Yep, there it is again. Your incompetence has left you no recourse but to parcel up my love - as though it were yours, or you were an authority on the types of love I feel. No dice, it's all love, it's all the same love. What kind of emotional midget resorts to this? I can think of no better opportunity to mention mention the "love" your fairy dictates or expresses, insofar as you describe it- reflects your own appraisal of love, not any gods - and to me, it sounds as twisted as vicarious redemption.

Indeed I do. Your heart has been blinded to Agape. In that you do not see or even recognise the Love of God. Which brings me back to my orginal assertion. God has allowed your heart to be hardened to Agape, and the only way to know this love is to ask God to share it with you.

No, you're simply incapable of establishing or communicating that there is love there to be seen. Incompetence. The evangelist blames the audience for his failures.

Now that my pervious inablity/incompentance to address your ignorance of the 4 basic forms of love, it is on you once again to develop an awareness or experience Agape for yourself. For as I said in the beginning there is nothing I can do to help you. Only God can share this love with you, and as per what He had written He will not, unless you first humble yourself before Him and simply A/S/K.

Finally we agree on at least one thing. There is nothing you can do to help. Incompetence. It's a good thing I don;t need or want your help, I suppose. On the other hand, since you can't fathom a world in which your kind of help isn't required - perhaps you should leave this to some else? An evangelist entirely more competent than yourself?

D So, you believe yourself to be the 'love standard' of the Human race.. That is really egotistically conceeded, but still funny.

I thought I made it very clear that I perceive myself as a standard human, not a standard for humanity. Is reading comprehension also an area of incompetence for you?

[Drich]

Yep, there it is again. Your incompetence has left you no recourse but to parcel up my love - as though it were yours, or you were an authority on the types of love I feel.

Wait, were we not talking about the Love of God? If you can admit to it or not the Love of God has been 'pre-parceled' about 2000 years ago. In that whenever the orginal greek mentions God's love it is refered to as Agape. Meaning anytime we refer to "God's love" or even an expression of "God's Love" in the English, we are actually refering to Agape in the Greek, as everything God does for us out of this love is identified as Agape.

Also know It is the Same Greek language that further parcels up your love, no me. For Phileo, Storge, and Eros are also words that define the broad range of the word we can only translate in the english as 'love.'
To only open your mind to what you have experienced as 'love' and then use that to create a standard the rest of the world must adhear to is unrealistic at best.

No dice, it;s all love, it;s all the same. What kind of emotional midget resorts to this?

I thought I made it very clear that I perceive myself as a standard human, not a standard for humanity. Is reading comprehension also an area of incompetence for you?

What you have said about yourself is inconsistant with how you present yourself. I decided to address how you have chosen to express your thoughts rather than how you say you do.

[The Grand Nudger]

The "love of god" was parceled up by you, in that last post, when you were parceling up mine. Pretending otherwise is pointless. How I present myself? More accurately, how you perceive me. If you were content with how I present myself or my thoughts - if that was what you respond to - you would not have needed to tell me all about how -my love- really is.

Not that any of that would matter. Supposing I did not present myself accurately or consistently - that would do what to show that there was love where you claimed it to be? Not a damned thing.
(I'm pretty sure I've said this before - but imagine whatever you like about me - and when you're done fantasizing - do your own work, handle your own shit, support your own garbage.)

Incompetence.

[Drich]

The "love of god" was parceled up by you, in that last post. Pretending otherwise is pointless.

Because it reflects what we are talking about. You said you saw no love in what God dose. I read "I can not see the Agape in what God does." Why because "Love" is Parceled by the bible so we know that God's love is different that the love you experience with your wife, kids/family, and friends.

If you do not know Agape then it is on you to ask God to show you. I can not show you the Love that only God can offer. I can try and explain it but words are not enough as you well know. Why? Because your heart is hard to the Love God offers. Not just you, but anyone who can not see God's love.

[The Grand Nudger]

It reflects you Drich. I'm looking around, and the only party speaking on the other side of the line is you. I think words do a fine job. Again you're mistaking ones incompetence with words for the inability of words to describe. Just to repeat this, as often as you claim it. My heart is not hard - you clearly don't have the slightest idea as to the status of my heart (in fact, confronted with my heart - you have to fall back on your fairy tale - you can;t even seem to process my experience of love, it has to be replaced, by you, with something entirely more comfortable - for you).....but with every post - you're telling everyone reading this something about your own. Which, honestly, is why I goad you into this shit to begin with. I want your god, your mind, your heart - exposed and clarified and talked about. I want people who say "oh, they're good people" to see what floats around in the heads of those "good people" .

So don't let my objections stop you. Please, continue. Tell me more about my heart, tell me more about my love.

[Mystic]

Here is the thing Rhythm. Religious people have "off" and "on" switches when they judge other people. At times, they judge with perception that is more non-religious, and see good in people and they forget the supposed nastiness of their souls according to the their holy book. For example, I would see a Teacher in high school, that was kind and good. I would like him and see good in him. Then when I read Quran, I get an over all judgement that he is a bad person having not accepted Islam (despite it being all too clear as the true religion to the pure hearted of course!). This was totally unnoticed in my life, until, I disbelieved in Islam and reflected over my perception. Disbelievers of the people of the book along with polytheists were the most "evil" of humanity, per Quran. But most of the time, I saw good in people.

I would say I was very religious, so would have a lot of moments of where I turn the "on" switch. When I would be sick, I would have that "on" switch almost perpetually.

What I observe now, is most Muslims and Christians have the "off" switch 99% of the time. Of course the ones that come debate on the internet, are turning it "on", while debating with the nasty hard hearted heathens! But don't let that fool you, I'm sure most of the time in real life, they have the "off" switch on.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'd be inclined to agree with you, most of the time. I'm making a special exception for Drich - his posts have utterly convinced me that the things he has swimming between his ears are exactly as disgusting as he describes them to be, not one ounce less -all of the time-. Any measure of improvement or decency would correlate directly and inversely to his distance from the faith he espouses at any given moment. Precisely the situation you describe, couched in other terms.

How's about it Drich. Do you say less disgusting things when I'm not around? :wink:

[Drich]

It reflects you Drich. I'm looking around, and the only party speaking on the other side of the line is you. I think words do a fine job. Again you're mistaking ones incompetence with words for the inability of words to describe. Just to repeat this, as often as you claim it. My heart is not hard - you clearly don't have the slightest idea as to the status of my heart (in fact, confronted with my heart - you have to fall back on your fairy tale - you can;t even seem to process my experience of love, it has to be replaced, by you, with something entirely more comfortable - for you).....but with every post - you're telling everyone reading this something about your own. Which, honestly, is why I goad you into this shit to begin with. I want your god, your mind, your heart - exposed and clarified and talked about. I want people who say "oh, they're good people" to see what floats around in the heads of those "good people" .

So don't let my objections stop you. Please, continue. Tell me more about my heart, tell me more about my love.

I guess your the one exception to the rule Rhythm. God says He hides Himself from 'certain people,' and that He allows their Hearts to grow hard and cold to Him. You do not know God, and you do not see his love. That must mean I have mis-identified your unique snow flake disposition and lumped you with every other living soul on the planet that has ever shared these symptoms, and God's own diagnosis.. But you, (like you claim) must somehow be different, and my difering to God's diagnosis is in error... Because you only have ever experience 3 of the 4 types of the broader understanding of the word love the greeks had. Must mean for you there is no greater understanding of anything that you have not experienced for yourself. Which by that logic should allow you to fly around like superman if you did not acknoweledge graveity