1984 & A/S/K revisited

[Neo-Scholastic]

Your correct, the angels were created into the presence of God and yes later they rejected Him. They do not have a chance at salvation, they are doomed...

Chapter & Verse?

(I ought to talk)

[Tonus]

Your correct, the angels were created into the presence of God and yes later they rejected Him. They do not have a chance at salvation, they are doomed...

Chapter & Verse?

(I ought to talk)

I presume that this refers to the angels being in heaven (and thus in the presence of god) and that some of them left heaven to breed with human females (thus abandoning their position in heaven and in effect rejecting god). I think that the book of Job refers to the angels applauding god's acts of creation (chapter 38?), and it is Jude 1:6 that refers to "the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling" and who are kept in a condition of "darkness" until the time of judgment is upon them.

[FallentoReason]

Your correct, the angels were created into the presence of God and yes later they rejected Him. They do not have a chance at salvation, they are doomed, there's a high price for rejecting God after having knowledge of Him. You need to remember the angels were the originators of sin.

So what's the difference between angels and humans, in this regard? You're literally contradicting yourself: knowledge of god would, to you, breach free will, only it won't in cases like the fallen angels. How do you keep these two competing, mutually exclusive ideas in your head?

If you're seeking a career in the circus of apologetics, it's required of you to know how to juggle cognitive-dissonant beliefs as well as the standard mental gymnastics all believers are taught. Sorry, but try applying next year maybe?

[Esquilax]

So what's the difference between angels and humans, in this regard? You're literally contradicting yourself: knowledge of god would, to you, breach free will, only it won't in cases like the fallen angels. How do you keep these two competing, mutually exclusive ideas in your head?

If you're seeking a career in the circus of apologetics, it's required of you to know how to juggle cognitive-dissonant beliefs as well as the standard mental gymnastics all believers are taught. Sorry, but try applying next year maybe?

That's cool, I'm looking for a career that has something useful to contribute to the world, anyway.

[FallentoReason]

If you're seeking a career in the circus of apologetics, it's required of you to know how to juggle cognitive-dissonant beliefs as well as the standard mental gymnastics all believers are taught. Sorry, but try applying next year maybe?

That's cool, I'm looking for a career that has something useful to contribute to the world, anyway.

hock:

[Godscreated]

Your correct, the angels were created into the presence of God and yes later they rejected Him. They do not have a chance at salvation, they are doomed...

Chapter & Verse?

(I ought to talk)

No chapter and verses on their creation, it makes sense that they were created in His presence. Omnipresent comes to mind. I'll have to find the verses that refer to their doom. May take some time.
Doesn't Lucifer's actions against God count in a rebellion as rejection, are they not the same, do not the angels that joined him count?

---

Your correct, the angels were created into the presence of God and yes later they rejected Him. They do not have a chance at salvation, they are doomed, there's a high price for rejecting God after having knowledge of Him. You need to remember the angels were the originators of sin.

So what's the difference between angels and humans, in this regard? You're literally contradicting yourself: knowledge of god would, to you, breach free will, only it won't in cases like the fallen angels. How do you keep these two competing, mutually exclusive ideas in your head?

The angels were created with free will, that's a given, they rejected their creator. They lived in the presence of God, thus knowing Him from observation. This is how He wanted it apparently. They fell for the same type of lie that Lucifer used on Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve were created with free will, that's a given, they rejected their creator. They lived in the presence of God, thus knowing Him through observation. This is how He wanted it apparently. They fell for the same type of lie that Lucifer used on the angels. So where is it I have things mixed up. God removed Himself from the presence of man and the angels from His presence, both sinful parties were and are removed from God's presence. Again where have I shown a difference. The angels that are still living with God learned by example messing with the will of God is not a thing to be doing. Man, well we still have not learned much.

[Esquilax]

So what's the difference between angels and humans, in this regard? You're literally contradicting yourself: knowledge of god would, to you, breach free will, only it won't in cases like the fallen angels. How do you keep these two competing, mutually exclusive ideas in your head?

The angels were created with free will, that's a given, they rejected their creator. They lived in the presence of God, thus knowing Him from observation. This is how He wanted it apparently. They fell for the same type of lie that Lucifer used on Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve were created with free will, that's a given, they rejected their creator. They lived in the presence of God, thus knowing Him through observation. This is how He wanted it apparently. They fell for the same type of lie that Lucifer used on the angels. So where is it I have things mixed up. God removed Himself from the presence of man and the angels from His presence, both sinful parties were and are removed from God's presence. Again where have I shown a difference. The angels that are still living with God learned by example messing with the will of God is not a thing to be doing. Man, well we still have not learned much.

The part where you've messed up is that both of those are examples of individuals with free will knowing god exists with absolute certainty and still acting exactly how they wanted to. So how is it that absolute knowledge of god contravenes free will?

[Godscreated]

The angels were created with free will, that's a given, they rejected their creator. They lived in the presence of God, thus knowing Him from observation. This is how He wanted it apparently. They fell for the same type of lie that Lucifer used on Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve were created with free will, that's a given, they rejected their creator. They lived in the presence of God, thus knowing Him through observation. This is how He wanted it apparently. They fell for the same type of lie that Lucifer used on the angels. So where is it I have things mixed up. God removed Himself from the presence of man and the angels from His presence, both sinful parties were and are removed from God's presence. Again where have I shown a difference. The angels that are still living with God learned by example messing with the will of God is not a thing to be doing. Man, well we still have not learned much.

The part where you've messed up is that both of those are examples of individuals with free will knowing god exists with absolute certainty and still acting exactly how they wanted to. So how is it that absolute knowledge of god contravenes free will?

The knowledge of God's existence does not contravene God given free will, I did not say it did, what I said was when Christ returns your free will is gone, no more, vanished, taken away and ect. This is the price of rejection people will pay, there's no free ride in life why would you believe there would be with God.

[pocaracas]

The part where you've messed up is that both of those are examples of individuals with free will knowing god exists with absolute certainty and still acting exactly how they wanted to. So how is it that absolute knowledge of god contravenes free will?

The knowledge of God's existence does not contravene God given free will, I did not say it did, what I said was when Christ returns your free will is gone, no more, vanished, taken away and ect. This is the price of rejection people will pay, there's no free ride in life why would you believe there would be with God.

Yep, it was Drich who said that, Esquilax.

Still, GC, how do you know all that about the future? ohhh it's in a book written hundreds of years ago?... not impressed.

[Waratah]

The knowledge of God's existence does not contravene God given free will, I did not say it did, what I said was when Christ returns your free will is gone, no more, vanished, taken away and ect. This is the price of rejection people will pay, there's no free ride in life why would you believe there would be with God.

So you get to keep free will, ONLY if you choose god?

Sounds like free will has already been taken no matter what you do. According to you we are all fucked(free will wise).