Assuming God?

[ronedee]

Funnily enough I have told him his logic is twisted many times but he doenst believe me. Any Christians who would comment on this would be much appreciated

Well.... it begs the question why you are here debating God. If something doesn't exist whats the point...on your end?

I mean...would you show up in a desert with your swimming trunks?

Or is this the "support group" for recovering Christians?

There is more reasons for us (Christians) to be here than you and your ilk.

So, in essence your friend is right! We were all (or most) brought up to believe in God. You and the others are fighting that formation.

But...God's Truth won't be denied. The problem with most atheists is that they seek God with there minds instead of their hearts!

You have it backwards. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God...and all things will be added to you." The kingdom is hiding within you! Search your heart and your mind will follow! Amen.

[Esquilax]

What passes as 'atheism' on this board is truly misotheism. The Hate of God. But the reason "atheist" do not accept this title is because they will have to acknoweledge that they do believe in God. (You have to believe in something to hate it.) Few if any have the marbles to own up to their hate. (probably because deep down they do not have complete faith in their "atheism.")

Really? Right off the back of me pointing out the enormous egotism of this argument, you're going to use it without a shred of irony?

Well, okay...

Well.... it begs the question why you are here debating God. If something doesn't exist whats the point...on your end?

I don't believe in Time Lords either, but I love debating the finer points of Doctor Who.

The point is not that atheists don't believe in a god, as it is that theists do. And there's a lot of theists. And they do things that effect the physical world that we atheists exist in too. So, you know... extant or not, this concept of god does exert a pressure on our lives personally, and our culture in general

Or is this the "support group" for recovering Christians?

Given the number of ex-christian atheists... yeah, I guess so. But beyond that, what's wrong with wanting a sense of community with those who believe the same as you do?

So, in essence your friend is right! We were all (or most) brought up to believe in God. You and the others are fighting that formation.

I submit to you that the truth is more important than marching in lockstep with tradition.

But...God's Truth won't be denied. The problem with most atheists is that they seek God with there minds instead of their hearts!

Damn those atheists, and their... thinking...

[Bad Wolf]

I debate God but I also debate every other religion. Its not relevant whether its true or not, its the effect it has on the world. Religion has killed millions of people and held back human development for centuries. It is the main cause of most wars and conflicts. It indoctrinates children into believing if they are bad or if they are gay they will burn forever in hell. That is child abuse. I do not hate God or any of the other gods because they do not exist. I hate the effect religion has on us. It is one of the few things in the world that can make a good person do bad things while making them believe that they are good. It teaches us what to think and not how to think. And that is why I will continue to debate God and indeed all of religion.

[ReasonableRuben]

My initial reaction was that this was the stupidest thing I had ever heard. But i'm not exactly sure what he meant by this.
Can someone please explain what assuming God means.

Hi, Rationalman. On the face of it, this does seem pretty dumb, though he could be implying some sort of reformed presuppositionalism.(though this is doubtful since you say that you think he is a Catholic) Has your discourse with him, so far, been so seemingly unsophisticated?

[The Grand Nudger]

What passes as 'atheism' on this board is truly misotheism. The Hate of God. But the reason "atheist" do not accept this title is because they will have to acknoweledge that they do believe in God. (You have to believe in something to hate it.) Few if any have the marbles to own up to their hate. (probably because deep down they do not have complete faith in their "atheism.")

You have to believe in something to hate it? Someone has clearly never explored the concept of a "villain" in fiction. Their entire reason for existing is to generate misgivings and serve as a foil for the hero.

In any case - I don't hate you Drich, I just don't think you're a decent person, that's all. Now sure, sure, some of the positions you hold disgust me..but you're a human being and I'm well aware that we all have our ticks, so I see little reason to hate you on the count of being disgusted by you. You cannot accept that what you find to be just I find to be sadistic and ignorant, what you call love I call sickness -and so rather than simply accept this you internalize my criticisms of your position and feel compelled to maintain that I hate god, god simply being a projection of yourself.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Funnily enough I have told him his logic is twisted many times but he doenst believe me. Any Christians who would comment on this would be much appreciated

Well.... it begs the question why you are here debating God. If something doesn't exist whats the point...on your end?

I mean...would you show up in a desert with your swimming trunks?

Or is this the "support group" for recovering Christians?

There is more reasons for us (Christians) to be here than you and your ilk.

So, in essence your friend is right! We were all (or most) brought up to believe in God. You and the others are fighting that formation.

But...God's Truth won't be denied. The problem with most atheists is that they seek God with there minds instead of their hearts!

You have it backwards. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God...and all things will be added to you." The kingdom is hiding within you! Search your heart and your mind will follow! Amen.

Just because one doesn't believe in something doesn't mean said 'something' is thus off limits for debate. As Esquilax points out, he doesn't believe in the Doctor being real either, but does that mean discussions about the finer points of sonic screwdrivers are hence off limits?

I think not.

You actually give a fine and concise example as to why we're here debating various facets of all manner of supposed gods. You call us [atheists] when responding to rationalman "...your ilk", implying an intense disgust with 'atheists' per se (this is an assumption on my part, so please correct me if I've read into the sleight of hand insult incorrectly). Theists (human beings per se) have the ability to affect the reality around us because they inhabit the same reality. I study Sikh NGOs for my PhD. I don't believe in any of the supernatural elements of their religion, but because they utilise government money for their charity and infrastructure projects, that does affect me and indeed all of society. Their use of their religious faith(s) to reinforce their behavior thus means that there is topic that must be debated and critiqued there, and one doesn't need to be a Sikh in order to study it.

The truth is, if theists just stopped trying to foist their religions onto those who don't ascribe to then, then there'd be no issue. We don't hate any gods because, to us, there's nothing to hate. What we do dislike is people using their un-evidenced beliefs to try and force others to accept what they have to say as right, often at the point of a sword.

Most religions teach that those who are external to their religion (The RCC being a prime example, even after the acceptance of inclusivism after Vatican II) are automatically bad, and must either be 'saved' or done away with. I, and many others, object to this stance, on the premise that it is anti-intellectual, and and anti-human. It's a disgusting attitude, based on nothing more than a belief with nothing but 'faith' to back it up.

If there is a god to be found, it will be found entirely with the mind, not the heart, as the heart's only function is to pump blood around our body to oxygenate our cells.

[Whateverist]

I have been debating with a Christian for a while now, he is Catholic I think. Anyway, just now he told me something along the lines of: You assume God to deny him, therefore you believe in him.
My initial reaction was that this was the stupidest thing I had ever heard. But i'm not exactly sure what he meant by this.
Can someone please explain what assuming God means.

In order to say there is no God you must first examine the concept of God and then deny the fact that God does not exist. What your buddy is saying in the examination of God you are acknoweledging God on some level otherwise you would not have taken the time to dismiss Him. I dont know if i completely agree with that. As i examine things all the time just to see if trust/belief in something is warranted.

I contend that if you spend any amount of time outside of the time it takes to descern whether there is or isnt a God, you are guilty of denying God. Because if you do not believe in something it will be dismissed and you will quickly move on. (How much of your life have you spent argueing about Odin, Ra, or Posiden?) It is this "returning to the well" and argueing whether there is water at the bottom of it (even though others pull water from it's depths and drink from it reguraly) that places you in a position to be continually denying God.

Your acknoweledgement comes in the form of the endless arguements and attempts to talk yourself out of belief. For if non belief were absolute there is no arguement. I know true non-believers/atheists. i have them in my family. They do not argue any points of Christianity as they truly believe there is not God and it is pointless to argue anything. (just like if someone were to want to make a case for thor.) You might play along till your curosity has been satasified, but no one would argue beyond that much less spend a life time (ahem,cough minnie) unless he were trying to convince himself/justify his desision to deny belief in God.

What passes as 'atheism' on this board is truly misotheism. The Hate of God. But the reason "atheist" do not accept this title is because they will have to acknoweledge that they do believe in God. (You have to believe in something to hate it.) Few if any have the marbles to own up to their hate. (probably because deep down they do not have complete faith in their "atheism.")

So surprising that you can have spent the amount of time here that you have and still believe that. I agree there are plenty of atheists who are mostly mad at god for disappointing them in some way. It wouldn't surprise me to see them revert to theism. But then many more have simply moved on.

So why hang out here? There are plenty of reasons. For some the greater community that surrounds them physically is religious. So this place gives them community. For some, they have enormous rage that they were deceived by the people who brought them up and this gives them a place to vent. For others it is simply a place to discuss things where god talk won't take over the discussion. And some of us are on a mission to save you from self abnegation. We just want more peers in the world and would really like you to turn your brains back on and start participating.

[Mister Agenda]

In order to say there is no God you must first examine the concept of God and then deny the fact that God does not exist.

I don't deny the fact that God does not exist.

Sorry, couldn't resist the low-hanging fruit.

What your buddy is saying in the examination of God you are acknoweledging God on some level otherwise you would not have taken the time to dismiss Him. I dont know if i completely agree with that. As i examine things all the time just to see if trust/belief in something is warranted.

You could say the same thing about assigning Santa Clause a low probability of currently existing as usually described. I think you're right not to completely agree.

I contend that if you spend any amount of time outside of the time it takes to descern whether there is or isnt a God, you are guilty of denying God. Because if you do not believe in something it will be dismissed and you will quickly move on. (How much of your life have you spent argueing about Odin, Ra, or Posiden?).

You flatter your position. If you put as much effort in arguing for the existence of Odin, Ra, Poseidon, or Santa Clause; you'd see how easy it is to keep us from moving on when it comes to the existence of those proposed entities. The only thing special about God in that regard is that he's still got followers interested in debating us and passing legislation based on obeying him that affects us.

It is this "returning to the well" and argueing whether there is water at the bottom of it (even though others pull water from it's depths and drink from it reguraly) that places you in a position to be continually denying God.

That would be a better analogy if water was invisible and intangible and was scientifically indistinguishable from no water at all.

Your acknoweledgement comes in the form of the endless arguements and attempts to talk yourself out of belief.

I think we must be getting to you Drich, that you find the idea of an argument that amounts to 'you're only arguing with me because you know I'm right!' appealing. No matter how nonsensical the belief you propose, we'll argue against it, not because we want to convince ourselves that magical flying ponies aren't real, but because bad arguments exist to be vivisected.

For if non belief were absolute there is no arguement.

Argument from 'you wouldn't argue with me if you thought you were really right!'. Why do you argue with us so much, Drich?

I know true non-believers/atheists. i have them in my family. They do not argue any points of Christianity as they truly believe there is not God and it is pointless to argue anything. (just like if someone were to want to make a case for thor.)

Wow, I don't argue with many theists in RL either, unless they go out of their way to have that discussion with me. It's almost like people come to discussion forums for that kind of thing, so it selects for people who are up for discussing the topic. How about you throw a conspiracy theory at us so you can conclude we think it's really true because we debate it with you. You're going down a rabbit hole, and I have to tell you, increasing your cognitive dissonance by throwing out arguments that stink is a great way to wind up an atheist...that day when you notice all of your arguments suck can be a real eye-opener.

You might play along till your curosity has been satasified, but no one would argue beyond that much less spend a life time (ahem,cough minnie) unless he were trying to convince himself/justify his desision to deny belief in God.

Seriously, have you never been to ANY other kind of discussion board? Try to live your life always picking the side of the person who argues their position the least as being the one most likely to be on solid ground and see how that works out for you.

What passes as 'atheism' on this board is truly misotheism. The Hate of God.

Nobody here hates God. The most we can hate is a concept of God that someone proposes. It's not our fault that believers keep presenting concepts of God that make him look like the petty Oriental potentates that inspired his character. If we seem to harp on God's perported character, it's because there seems to be a disconnect between his followers claiming he's good and worthy of worship and the actions and desires they ascribe to him. I kind of like the idea of a creator God that is very potent and wise but not omnipotent and omniscient, and is doing the best it can with a vast universe and has prepared a good afterlife to make up for not being so outstanding with this universe. If someone ever proposes that God, I'll find the concept attractive...but I won't believe in it unless there's evidence that should convince a reasonable person.

But the reason "atheist" do not accept this title is because they will have to acknoweledge that they do believe in God. (You have to believe in something to hate it.)

Voldemort is a real evil fellow. Pointing out how evil he is to someone who insists Voldemort is the good guy in the Harry Potter series doesn't mean I believe in him. And I would eviscerate a post by an atheist based on the idea the theist she's arguing with doesn't really believe in God. I expect better from us. I wish I could expect better from you.

Few if any have the marbles to own up to their hate. (probably because deep down they do not have complete faith in their "atheism.")

Let me guess: not admitting we hate God means we really hate him, right?

The abysmal quality of arguments theists present for their case was what tipped me over to atheism. I had already become skeptical when I had the experience of learning about logical fallacies and burden of proof while also taking a class from a religion professor trying to make the case for belief: it was torture to watch the pretzels he was willing to twist his mind into in order to try to justify his belief.

I don't come here to reinforce my atheism. If anything, I come here hoping to see a better argument for God than I've heard so far. If I'm wrong, I want to know it. But what I see instead does wind up reinforcing my atheism: still no good arguments, even from people who say God whispers in their ear. It's not us arguing to convince ourselves, it's the continued pathetic quality of the arguments of theists like yourself make that convinces us. A good argument wouldn't make God real, but at least you could say you had a good argument.

You're a trooper, Drich, and I believe in your sincerity, but your logic is so bad it's insulting.

[Minimalist]

I have been debating with a Christian for a while now, he is Catholic I think. Anyway, just now he told me something along the lines of: You assume God to deny him, therefore you believe in him.
My initial reaction was that this was the stupidest thing I had ever heard. But i'm not exactly sure what he meant by this.
Can someone please explain what assuming God means.

Yes. You have stumbled across a real idiot.... being a catholic is an almost certain indicator of idiot status...along with muslim and evangelical xtian, btw.

His assumption is that because he believes in horseshit you must also. These clowns are very predictable.

[LostLocke]

In order to say there is no God you must first examine the concept of God and then deny the fact that God does not exist. What your buddy is saying in the examination of God you are acknoweledging God on some level otherwise you would not have taken the time to dismiss Him.

In order to say there is no Sauron you must first examine the concept of Sauron and then deny the fact that Sauron does not exist. What your buddy is saying in the examination of Sauron you are acknowledging Sauron on some level otherwise you would not have taken the time to dismiss Him.

Does that mean you secretly believe in Sauron and just hate him?

See how ass-backwards that sounds?

If the simple recognition of the concept of something indicates that you actually believe in it, that would mean that anything and everything that you could discuss you would have to believe in.