What does an atheist...

[tackattack]

Seems to me that a God can: 1) Stop people from suffering, but does not. 2) end disease, but does not, 3) end death but does not, 4) end poverty but does not, 5) end starvation, but does not ...meets the definition of evil.

Looks like to me like the devil is God in exile. I would worship your god, if he was nicer.

Niceness is something I can't attribute to God. If man were nicer I'd have more faith in my fellow man. On your above points how does inaction = evil. If I don't help 1 homeless man but 1000 others does that make me evil? Just because he doesn't stop your suffering, your diseases, etc. doesn't mean he doesn't supply that to others. Even if the only thing I believe he's done is kickstarted our universe; that's enough for me to thank him daily.

[theVOID]

Seems to me that a God can: 1) Stop people from suffering, but does not. 2) end disease, but does not, 3) end death but does not, 4) end poverty but does not, 5) end starvation, but does not ...meets the definition of evil.

Looks like to me like the devil is God in exile. I would worship your god, if he was nicer.

Niceness is something I can't attribute to God.

Yet you have no problem calling him loving in previous posts?

On your above points how does inaction = evil.

I'm not of the opinion that it does either, it is if anything indifferent - but that is contradictory to the idea of a personal god.

If I don't help 1 homeless man but 1000 others does that make me evil?

No, it makes you the least compassionate out of 1001 individuals.

Just because he doesn't stop your suffering, your diseases, etc. doesn't mean he doesn't supply that to others.

If he can chose to provide a smug asshole like Benny Hinn with so much money than he doesn't know what to do with it, but then denies food and medicine to millions of starving, innocent children, then it makes him the biggest asshole ever.

[tackattack]

Because logically there is only so much coincidence that can be stacked upon another before you question is there a bigger design and who designed it.

Coincidences take place billions of times a second. It's a coincidence that your parents met at the right time and had sex at the right time to create you. One hour off or even a minute off could mean you wouldn't be here right now. The fact that your parent's parents met and had sex at the right time to create your parents who met at the right time and had sex at the right time to create you. If they had sex an hour off someone else would of been born instead of you. All this is by sheer coincidence. I see no reason to think there is some kind of designer if there is no evidence of one. There are no limits for coincidence. Coincidence/chances is just one more thing human beings have a common lack of understanding of. Jumping to a god conclusion is just silly. You don't need any god for billions of coincidences to take place. Lack of understanding can often lead to unreasonable conclusions.

I definately believe the coincidence exists. The more complex and rare the outcome the less probability of it being random. I see patterns in the coincedences that some have called wishfull thinking. If it's not random what is it, evolution? How many planets out of the billions do we calculate are inhabitable? What is the likelyhood that we are the most advanced if not only species? What are the odds that out of billions of planets, we would evolve from something animalistic into a coherent self-aware being? Yes, as a species we struggle to survive and overcome adversity, but explain the anomaly of humainty, please?

---

Seems to me that a God can: 1) Stop people from suffering, but does not. 2) end disease, but does not, 3) end death but does not, 4) end poverty but does not, 5) end starvation, but does not ...meets the definition of evil.

Looks like to me like the devil is God in exile. I would worship your god, if he was nicer.

Niceness is something I can't attribute to God.

Yet you have no problem calling him loving in previous posts?

I'm pretty sure I've actually tried not to call him loving only Love. I've defined repeatedly that I feel God's Love is different than the terms we define as the emotion or act of love here on earth.

On your above points how does inaction = evil.

I'm not of the opinion that it does either, it is if anything indifferent - but that is contradictory to the idea of a personal god.

I don't understand your wording. Could you please define "the idea of a personal god"

If I don't help 1 homeless man but 1000 others does that make me evil?

No, it makes you the least compassionate out of 1001 individuals.

Just because he doesn't stop your suffering, your diseases, etc. doesn't mean he doesn't supply that to others.

If he can chose to provide a smug asshole like Benny Hinn with so much money than he doesn't know what to do with it, but then denies food and medicine to millions of starving, innocent children, then it makes him the biggest asshole ever.

My point was man does this to his fellow man. He may use God as an excuse for going to war, feeding the hungry, etc. but good or bad; we do it to ourseleves.

pardon the doublepost

[leo-rcc]

However, science has come up with ways to increase crop supply, to genetically engineer foods, to make foods safer, etc etc. The lunatics and religions of the world have argued against all this with new age "organic" shite.

Coming from an agrarian background and having studied this subject, I have to make one small note here on your otherwise fine argument.

Genetically engineering crops is helpful to increase the yield and helps certain crops to grow in areas where they would normally not grow. It however is a double edged sword. Since crops are now more resistant to infections and pesticides, grow on location where they would normally not grow, it is very simple for a certain crop to completely take over an ecology thereby pushing out the flora and fauna that are native to that area. We have already seen examples of such problems with the introduction of animals and plants into environments without their natural predators there. The become a plague very rapidly.

Restraint in the use of genetically altered crops is not a bad thing, you need to be sure it doesn't affect the indigenous crops prior to release. New age shite doesn't come into play here. It is not a miracle cure.

[theVOID]

Because logically there is only so much coincidence that can be stacked upon another before you question is there a bigger design and who designed it.

Coincidences take place billions of times a second. It's a coincidence that your parents met at the right time and had sex at the right time to create you. One hour off or even a minute off could mean you wouldn't be here right now. The fact that your parent's parents met and had sex at the right time to create your parents who met at the right time and had sex at the right time to create you. If they had sex an hour off someone else would of been born instead of you. All this is by sheer coincidence. I see no reason to think there is some kind of designer if there is no evidence of one. There are no limits for coincidence. Coincidence/chances is just one more thing human beings have a common lack of understanding of. Jumping to a god conclusion is just silly. You don't need any god for billions of coincidences to take place. Lack of understanding can often lead to unreasonable conclusions.

I definately believe the coincidence exists. The more complex and rare the outcome the less probability of it being random.

Actually it is the exact opposite - The more random a system is the greater the chance is for complexity, diversity and rarity.

I see patterns in the coincedences that some have called wishfull thinking. If it's not random what is it, evolution?

That question doesn't really make a lot of sense.

How many planets out of the billions do we calculate are inhabitable?

There are 400,000,000,000 Stars in this galaxy alone, and billions of galaxies each containing a few hundred billion stars of their own. In our own solar system there are 8 planets, two of which fall into the so called goldilocks zone - those two being Earth and Mars and while mars does not contain vibrant life due to harsh conditions it is still within the temperature zone expected to make carbon based life a possibility.

Even being entirely pessimistic in calculating the probability of habitable worlds in the universe, if even 1 planet per 1,000,000 solar systems has a planet suitable for life as we know it, there are still billions upon billions of planets in the universe that by chance alone would be similar enough to our own and able to hold life.

What is the likelyhood that we are the most advanced if not only species?

Extremely unlikely

What are the odds that out of billions of planets, we would evolve from something animalistic into a coherent self-aware being?

The chances that we specifically are here? Extremely unlikely
The chances that intelligent life will arise somewhere in the universe? Extremely likely

Where and who in the universe does not matter in the slightest, it is to suggest that Humanity is more special than any other intelligent life form on any other habitable planet in the universe which is simply not the case.

Yes, as a species we struggle to survive and overcome adversity, but explain the anomaly of humainty, please?

Bad odds lead to sporadic success - it's as simple as that.

It does not matter that it was this species that evolved intelligence first - if it wasn't us then it would be another species that would eventually evolve intelligence. If it didn't happen on earth then it would have been another planet and either way you still have intelligent life somewhere in the universe sitting around and asking themselves 'what the fuck is going on here?' just like we are right now.

It takes far more humility to admit that we are lucky than it does to suppose we're divine.

[tackattack]

[quote='tackattack' pid='45398' dateline='1260703177']
Because logically there is only so much coincidence that can be stacked upon another before you question is there a bigger design and who designed it.

Coincidences take place billions of times a second. It's a coincidence that your parents met at the right time and had sex at the right time to create you. One hour off or even a minute off could mean you wouldn't be here right now. The fact that your parent's parents met and had sex at the right time to create your parents who met at the right time and had sex at the right time to create you. If they had sex an hour off someone else would of been born instead of you. All this is by sheer coincidence. I see no reason to think there is some kind of designer if there is no evidence of one. There are no limits for coincidence. Coincidence/chances is just one more thing human beings have a common lack of understanding of. Jumping to a god conclusion is just silly. You don't need any god for billions of coincidences to take place. Lack of understanding can often lead to unreasonable conclusions.

I definately believe the coincidence exists. The more complex and rare the outcome the less probability of it being random.

Actually it is the exact opposite - The more random a system is the greater the chance is for
complexity, diversity and rarity.

ok I'll try and digest that but sources would help.

I see patterns in the coincedences that some have called wishfull thinking. If it's not random what is it, evolution?

That question doesn't really make a lot of sense.

How many planets out of the billions do we calculate are inhabitable?

There are 400,000,000,000 Stars in this galaxy alone, and billions of galaxies each containing a few hundred billion stars of their own. In our own solar system there are 8 planets, two of which fall into the so called goldilocks zone - those two being Earth and Mars and while mars does not contain vibrant life due to harsh conditions it is still within the temperature zone expected to make carbon based life a possibility.

Even being entirely pessimistic in calculating the probability of habitable worlds in the universe, if even 1 planet per 1,000,000 solar systems has a planet suitable for life as we know it, there are still billions upon billions of planets in the universe that by chance alone would be similar enough to our own and able to hold life.

What is the likelyhood that we are the most advanced if not only species?

Extremely unlikely

What are the odds that out of billions of planets, we would evolve from something animalistic into a coherent self-aware being?

The chances that we specifically are here? Extremely unlikely
The chances that intelligent life will arise somewhere in the universe? Extremely likely

Where and who in the universe does not matter in the slightest, it is to suggest that Humanity is more special than any other intelligent life form on any other habitable planet in the universe which is simply not the case.

Yes, as a species we struggle to survive and overcome adversity, but explain the anomaly of humainty, please?

Bad odds lead to sporadic success - it's as simple as that.

It does not matter that it was this species that evolved intelligence first - if it wasn't us then it would be another species that would eventually evolve intelligence. If it didn't happen on earth then it would have been another planet and either way you still have intelligent life somewhere in the universe sitting around and asking themselves 'what the fuck is going on here?' just like we are right now.

It takes far more humility to admit that we are lucky than it does to suppose we're divine.

I like the last line but let me try and get my head around this. How do you factor free-will and cause and affect into (for lack of a better term" this theory of coincedence?

[theVOID]

Yet you have no problem calling him loving in previous posts?

I'm pretty sure I've actually tried not to call him loving on Love. I've defined repeatedly that I feel God's Love is different than th terms we define as the emotion or act of love here on earth.

Then what is God's love?

I don't understand your wording. Could you please define "the idea of a personal god"

A personal God is typically defined as god who answers prayers, which you believe he does, which means he cannot be indifferent and therefore choses directly to help some people through prayer but obviously doesn't care about starving babies.

My point was man does this to his fellow man. He may use God as an excuse for going to war, feeding the hungry, etc. but good or bad; we do it to ourseleves.

That is directly contradictory of what you said earlier, which i quote:

"Just because he doesn't stop your suffering, your diseases, etc. doesn't mean he doesn't supply that to others"

So you either believe that God helps some people and not others, or you believe he's indifferent. You seem to constantly flipflop on this point, so can you answer me directly, is god indifferent or does he help some people and not innocent babies?

---

It takes far more humility to admit that we are lucky than it does to suppose we're divine.

I like the last line but let me try and get my head around this. How do you factor free-will and cause and affect into (for lack of a better term" this theory of coincedence?

From our current understanding of Quantum Indeterminacy, even if you knew the state of everything in the universe you would still be unable to make predictions without probability and since Determinism cannot be random, i can conclude that there is only really free will. Due to the inherent randomness in the universe, even from a single cause that happened the same way each time you cannot expect that two instances will result in identical chains, in fact you would expect the differences over time to snowball into notably different systems.

The Christian view of free will i see as being problematic. As Christopher Hitchens puts it: "God gave you free will, you have no choice in the matter"

[tackattack]

Yet you have no problem calling him loving in previous posts?

I'm pretty sure I've actually tried not to call him loving only Love. I've defined repeatedly that I feel God's Love is different than the terms we define as the emotion or act of love here on earth.

Then what is God's love?

There was a typo in that and I've coreected it. It makes the statement a little clearer, but let me expound. I see love as caring and compassion, devotion, honesty, self-less and patient. Theese are some attributes the bible contributes to what God's Love is, but I see them as human traits that over the course of evolution could have developed out of communal living of primitive species. God's Love is eternal, the very concept of eternal is contrary to the reality of human existance. God's love is forgiveness. The concept that a man can kill my family and I'm supposed to just let it go is in direct opposition to my human nature. God's love is not boastfull or envious. When animal species have found a mate they publicise that to other males and are protective thus I don't see where this could have developed either. God's Love never fails. The concept of something not breking down (entropy discussion earlier) is foreign to the finite life on this planet. That's going to have to be a good start I'm going home to bed.

I don't understand your wording. Could you please define "the idea of a personal god"

A personal God is typically defined as god who answers prayers, which you believe he does, which means he cannot be indifferent and therefore choses directly to help some people through prayer but obviously doesn't care about starving babies.

I don't believe I ever stated that God answers my prayers. A lot of Christians feel God answers prayers. I don't pray to God asking for anything so there's no cause for an answer from my view.

My point was man does this to his fellow man. He may use God as an excuse for going to war, feeding the hungry, etc. but good or bad; we do it to ourseleves.

That is directly contradictory of what you said earlier, which i quote:

"Just because he doesn't stop your suffering, your diseases, etc. doesn't mean he doesn't supply that to others"

So you either believe that God helps some people and not others, or you believe he's indifferent. You seem to constantly flipflop on this point, so can you answer me directly, is god indifferent or does he help some people and not innocent babies?

---

I believe God heps everyone, it's whether the individual can accept that help is what's in question. I can never truly know what God's love is because it is unknowable, maybe it is indifferent. difference supposes choice and eludes to accepting he's sentient which I can neither prove nor is it relevant.

It takes far more humility to admit that we are lucky than it does to suppose we're divine.

I like the last line but let me try and get my head around this. How do you factor free-will and cause and affect into (for lack of a better term" this theory of coincedence?


From our current understanding of Quantum Indeterminacy, even if you knew the state of everything in the universe you would still be unable to make predictions without probability and since Determinism cannot be random, i can conclude that there is only really free will. Due to the inherent randomness in the universe, even from a single cause that happened the same way each time you cannot expect that two instances will result in identical chains, in fact you would expect the differences over time to snowball into notably different systems.

The Christian view of free will i see as being problematic. As Christopher Hitchens puts it: "God gave you free will, you have no choice in the matter"

You're going to have to go deeper into this and relate it to cause and effect for me I need time to ingest and rest.

[Ace Otana]

I definately believe the coincidence exists. The more complex and rare the outcome the less probability of it being random. I see patterns in the coincedences that some have called wishfull thinking. If it's not random what is it, evolution? How many planets out of the billions do we calculate are inhabitable? What is the likelyhood that we are the most advanced if not only species? What are the odds that out of billions of planets, we would evolve from something animalistic into a coherent self-aware being? Yes, as a species we struggle to survive and overcome adversity, but explain the anomaly of humainty, please?

No matter how unlikely, if there is a chance then it can happen. What is the likelyhood of us being the only life forms? Well it's very small. Chances of another race of advanced beings? Very high. Do you know how many suns there are in space? Also can you contemplate the amount of planets orbiting them? There are more suns in space than there is all the grands of sand on earth. Can you imagine how much sand there is on this planet and yet the amount of suns in space greatly out number all the sands of earth. So what are the chances of other life forms like us? Well I'd say it's a very high possibility. It's not unlikely that we are the only ones and in fact it's very likely that there are many billions out there.
We cannot comprehend the size of our own solar system let alone the universe. Chances/coincidences are normal and your very existence proves it. What do you think the chances were of you not existing? You are going to have to times all the people, all the time (like year, month, week, day ect ect) times all the sperm you are going to compete with then you should have your answer of your chances of existence. One minute differance in your family no matter what the timeline could of easily prevented you from existing. Can you contemplate the sheer chances that were stacked against you and yet despite that you are here. But because you are here someone else will never be given the chance of existence. Coincidence and chances are at play all the time. So like I said before, god is not needed. Just because it functions in a way that we delusional people will see as some design doesn't mean it is so. Adding god into the equation just raises more questions. No matter how slim the chance, if there is a chance then it will happen. Our very existence is evidence of that.

[theVOID]

The concept that a man can kill my family and I'm supposed to just let it go is in direct opposition to my human nature.

It is a lot more complex than that, for example if it was intentional murder i would never forgive them and see no reason why i should, if it was manslaughter, meaning unintentional loss of life then i could forgive them. If it was negligence then i don't know where i would stand, i may or may not be able to forgive them - but it would depend on the fine details.

I believe God heps everyone, it's whether the individual can accept that help is what's in question. I can never truly know what God's love is because it is unknowable, maybe it is indifferent. difference supposes choice and eludes to accepting he's sentient which I can neither prove nor is it relevant.

God helps everyone? How so?

You're going to have to go deeper into this and relate it to cause and effect for me I need time to ingest and rest.

Take Radioactive decay for a good example. Radioactive decay is the known uncaused effect in the universe, that is to say it has no cause, only a completely random process that at any time could take place causing the nucleus of an atom to decay emitting ionized particles and radiation - These completely random events accumulated over time disrupt the usual flow of cause and effect by means of obstruction. It would most likely be possible without Radioactive decay and other types of quantum indeterminacy to rerun the big bang over and over and obtain the exact same result each time, but with a truly random process you can never expect the same results and while it seems likely that the universe would be very similar each time you ran it, certain atomic interactions or even entire chains of interactions would be prevented - or caused - by this random decay leading to a differences between what would otherwise be exact replica universes. It should be noted that while you can not ever predict when a single atom will decay you can take large groups of atoms and have a remarkably accurate predicted average.