New, and stuff

[Violet]

I think it may be possible you are confused for the similarity between the words. I checked wikipedia and the belief in multiple Gods is named Polytheism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytheism ) while Pantheism is the belief that God and the Universe are equilvalent, in a sense while Panentheism is what you described ( God + Universe).

You made me doubt though given that Pantheism sounds more in line with Pantheon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon_(gods) ) that is a set of Gods in a polytheistic worldview.

Derp... in my defense, this morning was very chaotic and I got mixed in the mix. I probably confused pan and poly, since I register christianity as a polytheistic religion (regardless that its adherents typically claims otherwise), and you noted that you are a Christian. I apologize

As per the pantheism... I usually use the more archaic 'pantheism' as 'the acceptance and belief in all gods' (as is in line with other pan- words I use/read)... which isn't the whole 'god is universe' schtick most 'modern pantheists' claim to believe in (which is fine). I'm a little slow right now

[TheBigOhMan]

Derp... in my defense, this morning was very chaotic and I got mixed in the mix. I probably confused pan and poly, since I register christianity as a polytheistic religion (regardless that its adherents typically claims otherwise), and you noted that you are a Christian. I apologize

haha, no problem. Btw, I understand your view of Christianity as polytheist ( given the trinity, I assume? ) Though I'm not sure if the Trinity is valid. My granny is a Jehova Witness, and those don't believe in the trinity. I've talked about the issue and she makes sense ( at least, inside christian theology ), so I'm not sure about Trinity and I've contemplated the view that there is just one God and the Holy Ghost and Jesus are diferent entities "down" Jehova.

As per the pantheism... I usually use the more archaic 'pantheism' as 'the acceptance and belief in all gods' (as is in line with other pan- words I use/read)... which isn't the whole 'god is universe' schtick most 'modern pantheists' claim to believe in (which is fine). I'm a little slow right now

I see. I like old school

[fr0d0]

There's also the "no other gods besides me" with money being a god etc etc which could reveal polytheism. But I think violet does refer to the Trinity (as three separate gods and not 3 in 1 (like the oil :p)).

JWs are christians of course. Just the non trinitarian variety.

Nothing wrong with doubt. That's very healthy.

Oh and Welcome

[Violet]

haha, no problem. Btw, I understand your view of Christianity as polytheist ( given the trinity, I assume? ) Though I'm not sure if the Trinity is valid. My granny is a Jehova Witness, and those don't believe in the trinity. I've talked about the issue and she makes sense ( at least, inside christian theology ), so I'm not sure about Trinity and I've contemplated the view that there is just one God and the Holy Ghost and Jesus are diferent entities "down" Jehova.

Trinity, angels, demons, Prime Evil(s), Horsemen of the Apocalypse, etc... there's a whole pantheon. I think of Christianity (under Nicene Creed) as having a primary god (with three personalities) and a great many lesser deities. Without NC, it's a pantheon with the same persons as separate forms.

I think that most Christians (of any variety) don't register all of these beings as deities... not sure how they rationalize that, but if you're one of them: I'm interested in hearing it

I see. I like old school

I like things to make sense

---

There's also the "no other gods besides me" with money being a god etc etc which could reveal polytheism. But I think violet does refer to the Trinity (as three separate gods and not 3 in 1 (like the oil :p)).

It's a big part of it, no lie

JWs are christians of course. Just the non trinitarian variety.

Nothing wrong with doubt. That's very healthy.

Oh and Welcome

I second fr0d0 here, welcome

[TheBigOhMan]

I think that most Christians (of any variety) don't register all of these beings as deities... not sure how they rationalize that, but if you're one of them: I'm interested in hearing it

I think it's a matter of definitions. God is usually described as the creator of everything in theism, and it's surrounded by some really weird set of properties ( such as omnipotence, and stuff ). I don't know if demons, angels, etc fit that description, but I think they currently don't.

If you take angels/demons as Gods however, you can call Christianity a polytheist ( or pantheist ) view if you wish so, I guess. It's only a way to describe that a worldview contain supernatural beings, as I see it, so I really don't mind much about that definition issue .

[rexbeccarox]

Hi there BOM!

[Violet]

I think it's a matter of definitions. God is usually described as the creator of everything in theism, and it's surrounded by some really weird set of properties ( such as omnipotence, and stuff ). I don't know if demons, angels, etc fit that description, but I think they currently don't.

I think it's more a matter of special pleading... what then are demons and angels, if they are not 'lesser' deities?

Athena, Zeus, Odin, Thor... these are usually considered beings in polytheistic religions, using 'god' as a (usually) powerful being (often a spirit of some sort) believed to have some form of control over nature, the fortunes of men, or some other element of existence. A pantheon is what you have when you group all of the gods of a people or religion collectively. Given that angels and demons are gods under this understanding of the term (though one might declare them a demigod, as compared to the God proper: they're 'half-sized'... inferior), I feel comfortable considering Christianity polytheistic insofar as they believe in many gods... although they might worship but a handful (Jesus, Holy Ghost, YWHW... you might get away with Mary or Satan, but those are usually viewed as splinter groups (Catholicism, Satanism)).

If you take angels/demons as Gods however, you can call Christianity a polytheist ( or pantheist ) view if you wish so, I guess. It's only a way to describe that a worldview contain supernatural beings, as I see it, so I really don't mind much about that definition issue .

I'd prefer to have my understanding of a person's beliefs at least partially influenced by their beliefs I somehow only run into problems when I attempt to understand, though... people generally don't know why they believe what they believe, and it's been a point of fascination to me for quite some time now. I'm strongly considering going to school properly to see if I might manage to become a sociologist what others refer to for some odd centuries to come. </ends random ramblings>

To clarify... I do not consider Christianity to be pantheistic in its principles, given material such as 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me' and examples such as contests between YWHW and other gods so as to demonstrate the other's inferiority. Infact, to accept all gods would seem to be absolutely against the principles suggested by the jealousy and narcissism of the central god of Christianity. But don't worry, Dazzn's taught me well: people contradict

I believe that most Christian worship is intended monotheistically towards the central god (the trinity, if we don't consider that a form of polytheism in itself), but that the religion itself has many gods and demigods within.

[TheBigOhMan]

You seem to be older in the forum. ¿I'm not breaking any rule by "derailing" my own introduction thread, right? If the answer is that I'm indeed breaking it, I would kindly make a new thread in the pertinent area of the forum if you wish to continue with this topic.

I think it's more a matter of special pleading... what then are demons and angels, if they are not 'lesser' deities?

I would call them supernatural entities, though perhaps "lesser deities" could also be used.

Athena, Zeus, Odin, Thor... these are usually considered beings in polytheistic religions, using 'god' as a (usually) powerful being (often a spirit of some sort) believed to have some form of control over nature, the fortunes of men, or some other element of existence.

¿Aren't we humans "Gods" by that definition? We fit all the labels, as far as my limited understanding can see. We are powerfull beings ( powerfull here is somewhat ambiguos so I guess it could mean anything that have a certain range of possible actions?), we have a certain control over nature ( and a pretty good one. We have literaly shaped many places of the "natural" world to fit our desires. Cities, and the such. We can even claim to control high amounts of energy with bombs or some machines ). We can, in an extent, controle the fortune of other people ( or at least, powerfull, rich men can control many people's life if they wish so ), and we can control many elements of existence ( and not only elements in the sense of objects. We can also control to some degree the fundamental blocks of nature ).
The only thing we don't have ( at least that both theists and atheist can agree) is a spirit, but you seem to put it not as a requirement, but more as something that is usual, but not necesary ).

Under that label, ¿isn't anyone who believes in human civilization a polytheist?

I'd prefer to have my understanding of a person's beliefs at least partially influenced by their beliefs I somehow only run into problems when I attempt to understand, though... people generally don't know why they believe what they believe, and it's been a point of fascination to me for quite some time now. I'm strongly considering going to school properly to see if I might manage to become a sociologist what others refer to for some odd centuries to come. </ends random ramblings>

Humans can be sometimes paradoxial creatures. I won't say I don't engage in such behaviour, though I try to avoid it when I consciously detect it.

To clarify... I do not consider Christianity to be pantheistic in its principles, given material such as 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me' and examples such as contests between YWHW and other gods so as to demonstrate the other's inferiority. Infact, to accept all gods would seem to be absolutely against the principles suggested by the jealousy and narcissism of the central god of Christianity. But don't worry, Dazzn's taught me well: people contradict

I'm not sure if I'm following you. YWHW wants all the worships to him ( though personally I worship God because it makes me happy and it just simply flow. I don't see it much as something forced but as the natural reaction of Love toward someone who is many, many, many degrees above you ), but I'm not sure the Bible says tou can't believe in other Gods, as long as you don't worship them.

I believe that most Christian worship is intended monotheistically towards the central god (the trinity, if we don't consider that a form of polytheism in itself), but that the religion itself has many gods and demigods within.

Somehow reminded me of Evangelion ( lol ). We are Angels in the serie ( Lilin ) and our "power" is knowledge because we eated the Tree of Knowledge ( hey, I can have my random moments too! ).

[Violet]

You seem to be older in the forum. ¿I'm not breaking any rule by "derailing" my own introduction thread, right? If the answer is that I'm indeed breaking it, I would kindly make a new thread in the pertinent area of the forum if you wish to continue with this topic.

Rule breaking? Derailing? Please I'm something like the 5th oldest regular... and really, I'm a lot more regular than 3 of the others. Me, Tiberius, Fr0d0, Darwinian, Ace... I haven't seen the last post since like, February. Dar sometimes posts, it's rare though. Tib and fr0d0 post more consistently, but less overall, I post in bigger batches, then disappear for a bit. I have the pleasure of having been around for some of the more explosive policy decisions (even being part of the explosives, once or twice)... good times.

TLDR: We're not exactly sticklers for the rules we do have and enforce, let alone things that could only dream to be offenses. You're not breaking any rules, and I consider this more of an introduction to who you are than random tidbits about where you are from or what you've read.

I would call them supernatural entities, though perhaps "lesser deities" could also be used.

Fair enough, but you consider them non-gods? More inline with wisps and unicorns and faeries than with beings of immense supernatural powers that might impact the natural world?

Athena, Zeus, Odin, Thor... these are usually considered beings in polytheistic religions, using 'god' as a (usually) powerful being (often a spirit of some sort) believed to have some form of control over nature, the fortunes of men, or some other element of existence.

¿Aren't we humans "Gods" by that definition? We fit all the labels, as far as my limited understanding can see. We are powerfull beings ( powerfull here is somewhat ambiguos so I guess it could mean anything that have a certain range of possible actions?), we have a certain control over nature ( and a pretty good one. We have literaly shaped many places of the "natural" world to fit our desires. Cities, and the such. We can even claim to control high amounts of energy with bombs or some machines ). We can, in an extent, controle the fortune of other people ( or at least, powerfull, rich men can control many people's life if they wish so ), and we can control many elements of existence ( and not only elements in the sense of objects. We can also control to some degree the fundamental blocks of nature ).
The only thing we don't have ( at least that both theists and atheist can agree) is a spirit, but you seem to put it not as a requirement, but more as something that is usual, but not necesary ).

Under that label, ¿isn't anyone who believes in human civilization a polytheist?[/quote]

Good analysis... I'm rather impressed, actually. I'm so happy that we've finally a thinking new member join the forum. I'd say that humans are gods (of a sort)... they are the gods of the material world, alongside all other sapient beings They are young gods, still but learning the basics of living in their world, only just starting to practice changing it.

You're correct: I don't put spirit as a requirement for godhood... as I find that it doesn't change the nature of being 'powerful', having 'control over <nature, men, elements, etc>', infact, even having power and control does not a god make a being... it only makes them a powerful and dominating being... but then, perhaps that is what a god is? Really, if we're to be honest: most people haven't the slightest clue what makes any being a god... they know only examples of things that others have told them are gods, and they assume the rest of the baggage from there. I took that definition as an attempt to meet you in the middle, but if we're to go all the way for a better understanding: that's what I most enjoy to do

What is a god? If we simplify it to being necessarily 'spiritual', 'supernatural' or 'metaphysical', we might as well say that a god is a person existing as a spiritual being, supernatural being, or metaphysical being... but this tells us, ultimately: nothing about what the qualities of godhood must be. I'm going to make my first attempt at establishing this (bear in mind that I'm very tired and not-at-all at my best, for which I apologize)... I would appreciate any and all attempts to break it against beings that you would consider 'godlike' or as 'gods': Any and all nitpicking, challenging of the core of the premise... everything is welcomed.

God has the ultimate power and control, and is assumed to be 'a god' in all things.
A god is a being who has achieved a significant mastery over an element of existence, or who has achieved a significant level of power or control within an element of existence.
A demigod (half-god) is a being who has a significant mastery/power/control over an element of existence, but one which is notably limited compared to that which a god might posses.
<Minor gods> are beings who have only a simple mastery/power/control over an element of existence, and which is notably limited compared to that of even a demigod.
<Nongods> are beings who have little-no mastery/power/control over any elements of existence, and which are notably limited compared to that of even a minor god.

The last two in particular need better names, but it's a start of an attempt. It's not every day that one realizes they've no idea precisely what a god is

Humans can be sometimes paradoxial creatures. I won't say I don't engage in such behaviour, though I try to avoid it when I consciously detect it.

We can indeed be ^_^ When I find myself not knowing why I think what I think, I usually have a good long think about why I think what I think. It's rare for me to give up when I find I don't know.

I'm not sure if I'm following you. YWHW wants all the worships to him ( though personally I worship God because it makes me happy and it just simply flow. I don't see it much as something forced but as the natural reaction of Love toward someone who is many, many, many degrees above you ), but I'm not sure the Bible says tou can't believe in other Gods, as long as you don't worship them.

True, but other believers in YWHW have certainly made the case that those who do not worship God/believe in God are some sort of filthy heathens <inquisition>... I'm all too happy to only observe that Christianity doesn't particularly encourage pantheism, and to leave it at that.

Somehow reminded me of Evangelion ( lol ). We are Angels in the serie ( Lilin ) and our "power" is knowledge because we eated the Tree of Knowledge ( hey, I can have my random moments too! ).

If knowledge was the power that humans were given: I want a do-over. I could get into my knowledge=faith=confidence=trust=belief speil (and a concurrent absolute spite for dictionaries that use 'circular synonyms systems'), but that's handled... discovering what a god is? That's fascinating, and difficult as hell... and I'm not even sold on the whole 'power is basis for godhood' schtick... it might well be that it's more a 'we value X highly therefore it's a god', but I think that one's got a critical flaw in that I don't value Shiva as worth shit, yet I think that Shiva is a god, regardless of whether Shiva exists as more than smoke and mirrors or not.

[pocaracas]

¿I'm not breaking any rule by "derailing" my own introduction thread, right?

I find it cute how the written spanish languages always start a question with the inverted question mark...
You don't need to do that when writing in english, tough...
Most of us don't even have that symbol in our keyboards.
Then again, I have some nice symbols most people don't have on theirs: ª º ç Ç.
The circumflex ^ with letters: â ê î ô û (all except the â and ê are very uncommon in portuguese)
The acute ´ á é í ó ú (opens all vowels, makes them sound like they do in italian)
The grave ` à è ì ò ù (we only use it in the à... I guess the french use all those...)
The tilde ~ you have, but we can use it with other letters ã õ ñ(this n is only used when writing spanish)
The umlaut ¨, or with other letters ä ë ï ö ü (only used when writing in german or something like it)



I like the PT-PT keyboard. It's very versatile.... but makes writing code a bit of a pain, because the brackets all require pressing shift or altGr. Nothing you don't get used to...