Moral Argument for God's Existence

[MindForgedManacle]

As interesting as the discussion is, shouldn't we shift it back to the moral argument? o3o

You mean the definition of morality is not relevant to the moral argument?

No, but there seems to be a fundamental disagreement on the definition that seems... unlikely to be resolved.

[genkaus]

If you cannot determine how morality is defined,

What is this, bait-and-switch day? I said i cannot define how morality is determined. I can certainly determine how morality is defined.

how can you determine what is or is not moral for our solitary person?

I can.

There seem to be only two answers:

1. Morality is objective, or
   
2. Morality is imposed.
   

And the third - morality is self-determined. And the fourth - morality is determined by agreement. And maybe a fifth and a sixth and so on.

If morality is objective, then it can be arrived at rationally.

Correction - if a particular morality is objective, then it can be arrived at rationally.

If it is imposed, then it is imposed by an outside agency.

That's usually what imposed means.

Morality is defined as our behavior in regards to its effects on other people.

This is the first time I've seen this definition. And I can't find this definition in any dictionary. Nor can I see any of the existing definitions logically implying this one. The only part I can find is "Morality is defined as our behavior as regards to how it should be".

Which dictionary are you referring to again?

If you don't agree with that, then please provide examples of moral strictures that should be followed by our solitary person.

You can find thousands of such moral strictures in religions and philosophies all over the world.
- Don't eat pork.
- Don't masturbate.
- Think pure thoughts.
- Pray five times a day.
- Eat vegetarian.
- Work hard.
- Don't be hedonistic.
- Don't be lazy.
- Respect nature.

According to different religions and philosophies, these moral strictures should be and can be followed by the our solitary person.

---

No, but there seems to be a fundamental disagreement on the definition that seems... unlikely to be resolved.

If we can't agree on the definition of morality, how are we going to judge the validity of moral argument?

[Chas]

If you cannot determine how morality is defined,

What is this, bait-and-switch day? I said i cannot define how morality is determined. I can certainly determine how morality is defined.

how can you determine what is or is not moral for our solitary person?

I can.

There seem to be only two answers:

1. Morality is objective, or
   
2. Morality is imposed.
   

And the third - morality is self-determined. And the fourth - morality is determined by agreement. And maybe a fifth and a sixth and so on.

If morality is objective, then it can be arrived at rationally.

Correction - if a particular morality is objective, then it can be arrived at rationally.

If it is imposed, then it is imposed by an outside agency.

That's usually what imposed means.

Morality is defined as our behavior in regards to its effects on other people.

This is the first time I've seen this definition. And I can't find this definition in any dictionary. Nor can I see any of the existing definitions logically implying this one. The only part I can find is "Morality is defined as our behavior as regards to how it should be".

Which dictionary are you referring to again?

If you don't agree with that, then please provide examples of moral strictures that should be followed by our solitary person.

You can find thousands of such moral strictures in religions and philosophies all over the world.
- Don't eat pork.
- Don't masturbate.
- Think pure thoughts.
- Pray five times a day.
- Eat vegetarian.
- Work hard.
- Don't be hedonistic.
- Don't be lazy.
- Respect nature.

According to different religions and philosophies, these moral strictures should be and can be followed by the our solitary person.

---

No, but there seems to be a fundamental disagreement on the definition that seems... unlikely to be resolved.

If we can't agree on the definition of morality, how are we going to judge the validity of moral argument?

But that is exactly the point. Your examples are created by societies/religions. They are not applicable to our solitary person, they are external to him/her.

Morality is behavior, and behavior matters in the context of other people. It doesn't matter what our solitary person does - it cannot be judged moral or immoral. There is no one to judge.

[genkaus]

But that is exactly the point. Your examples are created by societies/religions. They are not applicable to our solitary person, they are external to him/her.

You do know what 'applicable' means, right? What something is created by and what it is applicable to are two different things. And being external to the person does not affect the applicability.

Morality is behavior, and behavior matters in the context of other people. It doesn't matter what our solitary person does - it cannot be judged moral or immoral. There is no one to judge.

Don't make me keep repeating the same refutation. That person is there to judge. His behavior matters to him. His behavior has a significant and observable effect on himself. Which is why it can be judged as moral or immoral.

[Chas]

But that is exactly the point. Your examples are created by societies/religions. They are not applicable to our solitary person, they are external to him/her.

You do know what 'applicable' means, right? What something is created by and what it is applicable to are two different things. And being external to the person does not affect the applicability.

Morality is behavior, and behavior matters in the context of other people. It doesn't matter what our solitary person does - it cannot be judged moral or immoral. There is no one to judge.

Don't make me keep repeating the same refutation. That person is there to judge. His behavior matters to him. His behavior has a significant and observable effect on himself. Which is why it can be judged as moral or immoral.

So you are saying that each person determines his or her morality, what is or isn't moral?

[pocaracas]

3 or 4 pages of using different definitions of "morality" in a ping-pong contest.... Somehow, I think it's not a first on this forum...

Would you guys start by agreeing on a definition of morality and then move on?

How about this one?
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition...q=morality

noun (plural moralities)
[mass noun]

principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour:the matter boiled down to simple morality: innocent prisoners ought to be freed
[count noun] a particular system of values and principles of conduct:a bourgeois morality
the extent to which an action is right or wrong:the issue of the morality of the possession of nuclear weapons

or maybe this one
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/morality?s=t

mo·ral·i·ty
[muh-ral-i-tee, maw-] Show IPA
noun, plural mo·ral·i·ties for 4–6.
1.
conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2.
moral quality or character.
3.
virtue in sexual matters; chastity.
4.
a doctrine or system of morals.
5.
moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance.


World English Dictionary
morality (məˈrælɪtɪ)

— n , pl -ties
1. the quality of being moral
2. conformity, or degree of conformity, to conventional standards of moral conduct
3. a system of moral principles
4. an instruction or lesson in morals
5. short for morality play


Word Origin & History

morality
late 14c., "moral qualities," from O.Fr. moralité, from L.L. moralitatem (nom. moralitas) "manner, character," from L. moralis (see moral (adj.)). Meaning "goodness" is attested from 1590s.

[Chas]

3 or 4 pages of using different definitions of "morality" in a ping-pong contest.... Somehow, I think it's not a first on this forum...

Would you guys start by agreeing on a definition of morality and then move on?

How about this one?
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition...q=morality

noun (plural moralities)
[mass noun]

principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour:the matter boiled down to simple morality: innocent prisoners ought to be freed
[count noun] a particular system of values and principles of conduct:a bourgeois morality
the extent to which an action is right or wrong:the issue of the morality of the possession of nuclear weapons

or maybe this one
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/morality?s=t

mo·ral·i·ty
[muh-ral-i-tee, maw-] Show IPA
noun, plural mo·ral·i·ties for 4–6.
1.
conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2.
moral quality or character.
3.
virtue in sexual matters; chastity.
4.
a doctrine or system of morals.
5.
moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance.


World English Dictionary
morality (məˈrælɪtɪ)

— n , pl -ties
1. the quality of being moral
2. conformity, or degree of conformity, to conventional standards of moral conduct
3. a system of moral principles
4. an instruction or lesson in morals
5. short for morality play


Word Origin & History

morality
late 14c., "moral qualities," from O.Fr. moralité, from L.L. moralitatem (nom. moralitas) "manner, character," from L. moralis (see moral (adj.)). Meaning "goodness" is attested from 1590s.

I would like to come to agreement, but there is a disconnect.

I am trying to get Genkaus to tell us what his definition of morality is. I gave mine.

[Angrboda]

— NZ study puts classic Yale study demonstrating innateness of morality in doubt.

An Otago University study has quashed the findings of a landmark 2007 Yale study which found that infants could tell the good guys from the bad guys.

The prestigious university's study became an international sensation as it was the first to suggest that babies could assess individuals on their behaviour towards others. The findings have become widely accepted since the study was published, and more than one hundred other research papers have referred to it, which is a signal of its success, Otago University postdoctoral fellow Dr Damian Scarf said.

But Scarf and his Otago University colleagues were suspicious of the Yale findings, and since discussing their own research with international colleagues, they've found out they weren't the only ones.

The team decided to conduct their own experiment to see whether babies did indeed have a moral compass, or whether they just had a preference for "attention grabbing events".

They simulated Yale's original experiment, which used wooden figures attempting to climb a hill.

In one scenario, babies would watch as another figure - the helper - would come and push the climber up the hill, and once it reached the top it would bounce, as if it was doing a little dance. Another scenario showed the climber reaching half-way and then being pushed down the hill by another figure, the hinderer. It did not bounce after reaching the bottom of the hill.

The majority of babies preferred the scenario which included the helper, which the Yale study said indicated that babies had the innate capability of determining one's moral character.

The Otago University experiment used identical materials to the Yale study, the only difference was that the character's eyes moved whereas they were fixed in the American study.

When replicating the Yale study, 12 out of 16 infants chose the helper over the hinderer. But then the Otago team changed things around, and made the climber who was pushed to the bottom of the hill do a dance, while the climber who was pushed to the top remained still. In this case, 12 out of 16 infants chose the hinderer over the helper.

When both climbers - one reaching the top with assistance from the helper and one being pushed to the bottom by the hinderer - did a dance, it was an even split, with eight infants choosing the helper scenario and eight choosing the hinderer scenario.

[genkaus]

So you are saying that each person determines his or her morality, what is or isn't moral?

Each person can - that doesn't mean he does or should.

---

I would like to come to agreement, but there is a disconnect.

I am trying to get Genkaus to tell us what his definition of morality is. I gave mine.

I've given mine 3 or 4 times already.

Morality is a code of conduct.
Morality is conceptual guide about how one should behave and act.

---

3 or 4 pages of using different definitions of "morality" in a ping-pong contest.... Somehow, I think it's not a first on this forum...

Would you guys start by agreeing on a definition of morality and then move on?

How about this one?
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition...q=morality

noun (plural moralities)
[mass noun]

principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour:the matter boiled down to simple morality: innocent prisoners ought to be freed
[count noun] a particular system of values and principles of conduct:a bourgeois morality
the extent to which an action is right or wrong:the issue of the morality of the possession of nuclear weapons

or maybe this one
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/morality?s=t

mo·ral·i·ty
[muh-ral-i-tee, maw-] Show IPA
noun, plural mo·ral·i·ties for 4–6.
1.
conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2.
moral quality or character.
3.
virtue in sexual matters; chastity.
4.
a doctrine or system of morals.
5.
moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance.


World English Dictionary
morality (məˈrælɪtɪ)

— n , pl -ties
1. the quality of being moral
2. conformity, or degree of conformity, to conventional standards of moral conduct
3. a system of moral principles
4. an instruction or lesson in morals
5. short for morality play


Word Origin & History

morality
late 14c., "moral qualities," from O.Fr. moralité, from L.L. moralitatem (nom. moralitas) "manner, character," from L. moralis (see moral (adj.)). Meaning "goodness" is attested from 1590s.

I've found those definitions to be woefully circular.

From Oxford:

Morality: principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.

Right: morally good, justified, or acceptable.

Good: possessing or displaying moral virtue


From Dictionary:

Morality: conformity to the rules of right conduct.

Right: in accordance with what is good, proper, or just

Good: morally excellent.


Which is why, in this case, I've looked for the answer in philosophy.

[bennyboy]

Each person can - that doesn't mean he does or should.

Are we applying "should" to morality? That's a cool idea, because it means if I think I should engage in a moral contract, I'm not only a moralist, but also a meta-moralist!