Religious moderates enable religious extremists

[Esquilax]

Religion had no effect on human culture or society at all?

Did I say "had an effect?" No, because religion has disfigured human culture immensely in its time. I said religion has not contributed anything of worth, and it demonstrably has not.

Religious people are the religion, as C.S Lewis describes it to be a Christian is to be a cell in the body of Christ.

Yes, that's the exact dishonest tactic I would use if I was willing to be the same sick thief of achievement that your religion is, but I'm not, and unfortunately, I simply can't dissuade you people of the brainwashing that has led you to accept that your every worthy attribute and act should be devoured by this social bloodsucker called god.

So use your pointless poetic language; the reality of the situation is that any religious person that has done anything of worth would have been exactly as capable of those feats without their religion, but they would have the added bonus of being able to properly enjoy their successes afterwards, without your christian fucking gargoyle hunched over their shoulder the entire time.

So the claim of the existence and love of God and our eternal salvation never profoundly effected anyone's life in any way at all because it didn't effect yourself? But even on the purely cultural level it's like saying the plays of Shakespeare didn't impact our society.

No, I'm not saying that because it hasn't personally affected me. I'm saying it because, despite what your religion says, people are fucking fantastic, and each and every one of them has just as much potential without the bible, as they do with it, and each and every damn soul on this planet would have the same opportunities to realize it, without your church.

But please, keep putting words into my mouth: it's worked out amazingly well for you so far. Everyone is on your side!

[Sword of Christ]

Did I say "had an effect?" No, because religion has disfigured human culture immensely in its time.

Human rights, equality, charities, care for the poor, hospitals, schools and the end of the slave trade are disfigurements are they? You think this is a disfigurement?



All the cultural achievements all the positive changes in human life? The art the music the literature? It's a disfigurement? Are you sure it's not bringing out the very best of human potential?

I said religion has not contributed anything of worth, and it demonstrably has not.

Demonstrably in your own imagined world that has nothing to do with real human history at all? Now yes some people have done some bad things in the name of religion but worse things were done for political and secular ideologies. Many of these ideologies were influenced by Darwinian science (fascism) and atheism (Communism) were talking millions of people killed. Everything considered religion has achieved more.

Yes, that's the exact dishonest tactic I would use if I was willing to be the same sick thief of achievement that your religion is, but I'm not, and unfortunately, I simply can't dissuade you people of the brainwashing that has led you to accept that your every worthy attribute and act should be devoured by this social bloodsucker called god.

Nope you have been brainwashed into believed that God/religion is a force for evil when in reality it has been quite the opposite.

So use your pointless poetic language; the reality of the situation is that any religious person that has done anything of worth would have been exactly as capable of those feats without their religion

Yes but why would you feel the need? You can see there is a a spark of something good within humanity and that something is God. You will find it in the human heart. I don't give shit if you think it's some kind of a myth the results speak for themselves.

, but they would have the added bonus of being able to properly enjoy their successes afterwards, without your christian fucking gargoyle hunched over their shoulder the entire time.

Eternally afterwards or for a few decades of life?

No, I'm not saying that because it hasn't personally affected me. I'm saying it because, despite what your religion says, people are fucking fantastic

Because they are made in Gods image and God is fucking fantastic. You think we're all just fucking machines!

, and each and every one of them has just as much potential without the bible, as they do with it, and each and every damn soul on this planet would have the same opportunities to realize it, without your church.

Because they achieved what they achieved through God regardless. Again it doesn't matter if you think God is a myth or doesn't exist and it doesn't matter what you think of the Church. You're not going to erase the good of humanity and turn us into machines. We are not machine we are the creations of God loved by God everyone with equal worth to God. Your man made ideology is literally nothing at all.

But please, keep putting words into my mouth: it's worked out amazingly well for you so far. Everyone is on your side!

Christ is triumphant over your false man made ideology, the fruits of God and his relationship to humanity and the good within the heart of humanity is clear even to you.

[Esquilax]

Human rights, equality, charities, care for the poor, hospitals, schools and the end of the slave trade are disfigurements are they? You think this is a disfigurement?

My submission is that those things were the products of the people involved, and not the religion. All those charitable emotions and acts are within all of us, all your religion does is steal the credit for them.

Incidentally, I find it hilarious that you would start with human rights and equality, because the one thing your religion can do is inspire hate where none would otherwise exist, and christianity in particular has been used to justify human rights violations including the slave trade, and the inequality of gays and women even today.

... Oh, but I'm sure in your mind the reverse of what I just said is true, no? Let me nip that in the bud: the hate in this case requires "god wants x!" which isn't something you'll see from atheists, yet you do see the charity from them.

All the cultural achievements all the positive changes in human life? The art the music the literature? It's a disfigurement? Are you sure it's not bringing out the very best of human potential?

It's stealing credit for human brilliance. Since you can't prove its true, and all...

Demonstrably in your own imagined world that has nothing to do with real human history at all? Now yes some people have done some bad things in the name of religion but worse things were done for political and secular ideologies. Many of these ideologies were influenced by Darwinian science (fascism) and atheism (Communism) were talking millions of people killed. Everything considered religion has achieved more.

Oh, silly boy: name me a single ideology that committed atrocities in the name of disbelief in god. Since I know you can't, then wouldn't you say that there were other factors motivating these things? Say, greed or a lust for power or anything else?

Given that you can now not draw a link between atheism and communism, let's look at your other claim: if fascism drew any inspiration from evolutionary science, then it was a drastic misunderstanding of how the theory works, for one. Secondly, I think you'll find that you're thinking of the philosophical concept of survival of the fittest- not actually a tenet of evolution, fool- and not natural selection, which works completely contrary to the acts of a fascist regime.

So, both of those things were inspired by evolution and atheism in the sense that they neither understood nor acted in ways in keeping with those two concepts, and in fact did literally the opposite, and in the latter case did so without ever doing so in the name of the sole atheist position.

They were influenced by those secular things in the sense that they weren't at all influenced by them.

Nope you have been brainwashed into believed that God/religion is a force for evil when in reality it has been quite the opposite.

"Nope?" Wow! I've never thought about it like that before! "Nope!" I'm totally convinced!

Holy hell. "Nope." I was totally wrong. Thank you for changing my mind with your bland assertion that I'm wrong, you goddamn idiot.

Yes but why would you feel the need?

Because creation is tremendously satisfying. Because charity makes one feel good, and helps people. Because we are strengthened as a group through our artistic endeavors and acts of kindness.

I'm an atheist, I don't believe in your god, and yet somehow I find the will to both write and do creative things, and do charity work on the side. It's not fucking rocket science, and it's the reason why I'm confident in presenting this idea that your religion has nothing to do with the human spirit, except the ways in which it harms us.

You can see there is a a spark of something good within humanity and that something is God. You will find it in the human heart. I don't give shit if you think it's some kind of a myth the results speak for themselves.

The results of human strength and creativity, yes. They do speak for themselves, without any input from your god.

Eternally afterwards or for a few decades of life?

Those few decades are the only time they have, Sword.

Because they are made in Gods image and God is fucking fantastic. You think we're all just fucking machines!

Wow, more telling me what I think. Go fuck yourself.

For the record, I think we're the product of millions of years of evolution, small parts in an enormous creative engine that spans the entire globe. I think we're the crest of the wave, the current cognitive best that this process can produce, capable of immense feats of creativity when we put our minds to it. I think we're going to be superseded by what comes next, that our fate is to be the giants whose shoulders the next generation will stand upon, and that we have a duty to make the world better for them.

I think all of that without the need for a god, nor any real interest in one. And I think it's sad that you're so reliant on your magic sky daddy that you can't see all that too without it.

Because they achieved what they achieved through God regardless.

Yes, that's the theft of human accomplishment I was talking about before. Thanks for giving a great example.

Again it doesn't matter if you think God is a myth or doesn't exist and it doesn't matter what you think of the Church. You're not going to erase the good of humanity and turn us into machines. We are not machine we are the creations of God loved by God everyone with equal worth to God. Your man made ideology is literally nothing at all.

You keep telling me what I believe, I'll keep telling you what to go fuck.

Hint: it's yourself.

Christ is triumphant over your false man made ideology, the fruits of God and his relationship to humanity and the good within the heart of humanity is clear even to you.

Proof, or get the fuck out.

Oh, and by the way, quit it with the youtube videos. I know you think you're some kind of theological genius, but you just look like a child gloating over an argument they can't see the major, glaring flaw in because they're using kid logic.

You look like a dick. Maybe you are one- it seems likely- but it'd be great if maybe you could at least try not to appear as one. Cover up the tip with a hat or something.

[MindForgedManacle]

I compliment you on your tenacity and arguments Esquilax, but SoC will continue to retort with further fallacious nonsense.

[Esquilax]

I compliment you on your tenacity and arguments Esquilax, but SoC will continue to retort with further fallacious nonsense.

I'm not really doing it for him: I'm doing it because that kind of idiocy should be fought, or else it'll only spread. He doesn't deserve to have his asshole nature go unchallenged.

[Lion IRC]

Judging by all the invective and abusive ad hom ranting I'd say Sword of Christ has gotten the best of you Esquilax.

It looks like the only fighting going on is you fighting to stay calm.

Relax pal.
More reason - less emotional reaction.
*hint* Read the thread title again.

---

I'm not really doing it for him...

Yeah. Your focus DOES seem to be elsewhere.

[Esquilax]

Judging by all the invective and abusive ad hom ranting I'd say Sword of Christ has gotten the best of you Esquilax.

It looks like the only fighting going on is you fighting to stay calm.

We've spent several days jousting back and forth, culminating in him telling me flat out that he knows what I'm thinking better than I do. Since then, I've seen little reason to treat him gently.

Relax pal.
More reason - less emotional reaction.

Except that anger doesn't diminish a reasonable argument. I still stand by what I say; all the good things religion claims as its own come from the people involved and do not require religion. And, you know, I am angry at the way religions seem to snaffle up all the credit for these things: it only serves to further beat down good people with the idea that they're sinful reprobates capable of nothing good on their own. It's a cultivation of dependency on an idea that provides nothing of its own.

What's not to be mad about?

Yeah. Your focus DOES seem to be elsewhere.

Hey, Sword seems to be completely unassailable, in terms of reason. He won't back off on anything, even the things he couldn't possibly know- like, say, the contents of my head. I literally can't do anything for him.

[Sword of Christ]

My submission is that those things were the products of the people involved, and not the religion.

I agree that's it's not "religion" it's the good within humanity which is through God. But you think it's chemical reactions, instinct, evolution or whatever and we just follow our programs like machines. Thee is no good, no evil, no freewill and no point.

Incidentally, I find it hilarious that you would start with human rights and equality, because the one thing your religion can do is inspire hate where none would otherwise exist, and christianity in particular has been used to justify human rights violations including the slave trade, and the inequality of gays and women even today.

Christianity helped to end the slave trade and promote human rights. Yes homosexuality is a thorny and divisive issue in certain Churches though it doesn't mean inequality is promoted they just believe it to be a sin, like sex outside of marriage would be sinful.

... Oh, but I'm sure in your mind the reverse of what I just said is true, no? Let me nip that in the bud: the hate in this case requires "god wants x!" which isn't something you'll see from atheists, yet you do see the charity from them.

Not generally as much on average but they still feel some compulsion to do good and help others certainly.

It's stealing credit for human brilliance.

Human brilliance comes about from being made in the image of God. You can give equal credit to both.

Since you can't prove its true, and all...

You may as well prove atheism is true though I would say the evidence is against it.

Oh, silly boy: name me a single ideology that committed atrocities in the name of disbelief in god.

Atrocities were committed due to or in association with atheist ideology, see for instance the French Reign of Terror. If you want to go on raw numbers then atheism is associated with millions more deaths than religion. Of course you can't pin this on a "disbelief in God" because no-one would kill anyone based on what they don't believe.

Since I know you can't

Only because you loaded it as "disbelief in God". Otherwise it would be easy to point out the death toll of Communist socialist anti-religion regimes which you well know is staggering.

, then wouldn't you say that there were other factors motivating these things? Say, greed or a lust for power or anything else?

Motivated by pure human sin yes.

Given that you can now not draw a link between atheism and communism, let's look at your other claim: if fascism drew any inspiration from evolutionary science, then it was a drastic misunderstanding of how the theory works, for one.

Much like atrocities committed in the name of religion are drastic misunderstandings of God it's the same kind of thing.

Secondly, I think you'll find that you're thinking of the philosophical concept of survival of the fittest- not actually a tenet of evolution, fool- and not natural selection, which works completely contrary to the acts of a fascist regime.

The Nazi's "euthanized" it's mentally and physically disabled citizens, the people who would be a drain on their economy. They also attempted to conquer an empire where their own people would rule and have dominance over the lesser races, gain all their land and resources and so on. You can say they had the right idea if you want to disregard all our God given morality. It's not the good of the human race that would matter but the prosperity of your own tribal unit in competition with others. The strongest survive and the weakest die.

So, both of those things were inspired by evolution and atheism in the sense that they neither understood nor acted in ways in keeping with those two concepts

You can't really fault what they did in any practical sense you can only fault them on their morality.

, and in fact did literally the opposite, and in the latter case did so without ever doing so in the name of the sole atheist position.

The removal of belief in God and religion and all it's power was one of the goals of Communism. Not just against Christianity but you can see for instance the persecution of Buddhists in China. A new state religion based around man or based on blood and soil would then be put in Gods place.

They were influenced by those secular things in the sense that they weren't at all influenced by them.

You could say it was a religious motivation but a purely human made religion to be put in Gods place. What we don't want or need are false idols in place of God.

"Nope?" Wow! I've never thought about it like that before! "Nope!" I'm totally convinced!

Excellent, time for some repentance to the Lord then.

A= Acknowledge your wrong doings
B= Be sorry, or feel bad
C= Confess your sins to the Lord (or priesthood authority if the sin warrants!)
D= Don’t do it again

Holy hell. "Nope." I was totally wrong. Thank you for changing my mind with your bland assertion that I'm wrong, you goddamn idiot.

No need to thank me thank the power of the Lord. All I did signpost the way out of the darkness and you allowed God to carry you out.

Because creation is tremendously satisfying.

Because creation is an act of God and we're in Gods image. That's why it's satisfying.

Because charity makes one feel good

This what you would calla "heavenly reward" it feels good because you draw yourself closer to God.

, and helps people. Because we are strengthened as a group through our artistic endeavors and acts of kindness.

Exactly, now you have come to understand the true power of the Lord!

I'm an atheist, I don't believe in your god, and yet somehow I find the will to both write and do creative things, and do charity work on the side.

So the power of God is working through you even though you try to deny the existence of that which motivates you to do good? You see how the best kind of evidence is internal within you?

It's not fucking rocket science, and it's the reason why I'm confident in presenting this idea that your religion has nothing to do with the human spirit, except the ways in which it harms us.

It's not religion that's the cause it's God and our relationship to God who is the cause.

The results of human strength and creativity, yes.

And we get all this from?

They do speak for themselves, without any input from your god.

Well no there is a reason for these things, and the reason is God. Why don't you like the idea of having a good reason and explanation for things that happen?

Those few decades are the only time they have, Sword.

On this side of eternity yes.

Wow, more telling me what I think. Go fuck yourself.

That is what you think! You don't believe in God a higher power or purpose therefore we're that are the byproduct of a natural process what bloody hell else do you think we are?

For the record, I think we're the product of millions of years of evolution, small parts in an enormous creative engine that spans the entire globe.

And all of this exists and all the natural processes it took to engineer all this exist because? What it's just randomly here for no reason?

I think we're the crest of the wave, the current cognitive best that this process can produce, capable of immense feats of creativity when we put our minds to it.

Why does this whole process exist in the first place?

I think we're going to be superseded by what comes next

There is a direction to it then? I think we're as developed as biological life can be myself. There is scientific backing that a larger brain to body ratio would be less efficient.

, that our fate is to be the giants whose shoulders the next generation will stand upon, and that we have a duty to make the world better for them.

And eventually everything will grind down into the dust of a universe in decay and ruin for which there never was any reason or purpose for it's existence and within which we were just byproduct of organic scum? This is not an uplifting vision of humanities future or current state however you try to cut it.

I think all of that without the need for a god, nor any real interest in one.

You're still interested in all that God represents, you're still interested in some kind of goal or purpose to life. Which you won't have without God.

I think it's sad that you're so reliant on your magic sky daddy that you can't see all that too without it.

It's a shame you're so reliant on brainwashing materialist dogma that you can't see what you yourself believe.

Yes, that's the theft of human accomplishment I was talking about before. Thanks for giving a great example.

Human accomplishment and Gods accomplishment go hand in hand together we are Gods creation we're in relationship with God.

You keep telling me what I believe, I'll keep telling you what to go fuck.

I keep telling you what atheism is about not necessarily what you believe if you don't agree with atheist philosophy. We would be machines made by a fluke of natural coincidence and mechanistically determined. Have a read of Stephen Hawkings the Grand Design to get more insight into this if you don't want to take my word for it you can take his.

Proof, or get the fuck out.

The proof is internal within you and the evidence is everywhere you look.

You look like a dick. Maybe you are one- it seems likely- but it'd be great if maybe you could at least try not to appear as one. Cover up the tip with a hat or something.

It takes a dick to fuck assholes and pussies? Just your opinion though as I haven't meekly backed down under your overwhelming reason and ad hominem attacks.

[Captain Colostomy]

[Esquilax]

I agree that's it's not "religion" it's the good within humanity which is through God. But you think it's chemical reactions, instinct, evolution or whatever and we just follow our programs like machines. Thee is no good, no evil, no freewill and no point.

You've been told what I believe on this subject in other threads, so stop lying. (See, Lion, this is what I'm dealing with with this guy. He constantly and willfully misrepresents what I believe, despite input by me to the contrary.)

Also, if you can't demonstrate your god contributes this human goodness, you have no right to be asserting that it's the sole reason for that goodness.

Christianity helped to end the slave trade and promote human rights.

They also helped propagate it in the first place, and defend it against abolition. You know, like one would expect that people would, if god wasn't actually the source of human goodness and his book is filled of fantasies that can be spun any way you want? Funny, how that plays out.

Yes homosexuality is a thorny and divisive issue in certain Churches though it doesn't mean inequality is promoted they just believe it to be a sin, like sex outside of marriage would be sinful.

"This isn't an inequality thing, certain churches just don't want gays to have equal rights under the law."

This is actually what you're saying. Just telling me it's not an issue of equality doesn't change the fact that it demonstrably is by definition.

Not generally as much on average but they still feel some compulsion to do good and help others certainly.

Rather puts a dent in your theory that we all believe all humans are machines and there's no good and evil, doesn't it?

Human brilliance comes about from being made in the image of God. You can give equal credit to both.

And the only one deserving of that credit is the human, until you can show that your god exists.

Go ahead, tell me that there's no scientific proof you can give for god. I've already told you that's not the only proof I'd accept. Say it anyway, like you always do.

You may as well prove atheism is true though I would say the evidence is against it.

Oh, I can do that very easily: I don't believe in a god. The verification is my own mind, and what I think. I do not believe in a god, and henceforth my atheism, the lack of belief in a god, is true.

Easy!

Atrocities were committed due to or in association with atheist ideology, see for instance the French Reign of Terror. If you want to go on raw numbers then atheism is associated with millions more deaths than religion. Of course you can't pin this on a "disbelief in God" because no-one would kill anyone based on what they don't believe.

What's an "atheist ideology?" Atheism is a position on a single issue, and I'm willing to bet that you can't produce a single tenet of an atheist ideology that would actually map to what atheism is and not, say, your drastic misrepresentation of it.

Only because you loaded it as "disbelief in God". Otherwise it would be easy to point out the death toll of Communist socialist anti-religion regimes which you well know is staggering.

Antitheism is the anti-religious component, not atheism. And atheism is a disbelief in god by definition: A- prefix denoting a lack of something, theism- belief in a god. Atheism: lack of belief in a god. The term you're looking for, the denial one, is gnostic atheism, which I and most of the others here are not, and the anti-religion one is antitheism, which also isn't me and most of the others.

Besides, as I've noted elsewhere, even if you change what atheism means, that doesn't obligate us to take up the new beliefs. We'd still believe what we always have believed.

Motivated by pure human sin yes.

So, to be clear, the bad stuff is all human, but the good stuff is all stuff god gets the credit for?

Much like atrocities committed in the name of religion are drastic misunderstandings of God it's the same kind of thing.

Not according to the words in the bible. You know, the ones about killing all those of different religions?

The Nazi's "euthanized" it's mentally and physically disabled citizens, the people who would be a drain on their economy. They also attempted to conquer an empire where their own people would rule and have dominance over the lesser races, gain all their land and resources and so on. You can say they had the right idea if you want to disregard all our God given morality. It's not the good of the human race that would matter but the prosperity of your own tribal unit in competition with others. The strongest survive and the weakest die.

And I'm saying they were wrong morally, and that if they were indeed using evolution as a source, they were misunderstanding that. You're thinking of social Darwinism here, which has nothing to do with biological evolution, or atheism. Hell, the regular kind of evolution doesn't have anything to do with atheism.

Incidentally, you're just flat wrong, anyway: a list of books banned by the Nazis in 1935 had "Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel)" on it, and Hitler himself was said to have been a proponent of microevolution, if anything:

Where do we acquire the right to believe that man has not always been what he is now? The study of nature teaches us that, in the animal kingdom just as much as in the vegetable kingdom, variations have occurred. They've occurred within the species, but none of these variations has an importance comparable with that which separates man from the monkey — assuming that this transformation really took place.

Whatever else, he was definitely a proponent of intelligent design:

The most marvelous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator.

Isn't it amazing what a small amount of research will do? Oh, you wouldn't know: it's clear you didn't do any.

Cue No True Scotsman fallacy in three... two... one...

You can't really fault what they did in any practical sense you can only fault them on their morality.

Why? Because you said so?

I already told you, with supporting evidence, that whatever they did, it wasn't done on behalf of atheism or evolution, so just completely ignoring that isn't going to help your case.

The removal of belief in God and religion and all it's power was one of the goals of Communism. Not just against Christianity but you can see for instance the persecution of Buddhists in China. A new state religion based around man or based on blood and soil would then be put in Gods place.

Which would make them antitheists, not atheists.

You could say it was a religious motivation but a purely human made religion to be put in Gods place. What we don't want or need are false idols in place of God.

So why try to make a connection between them and atheism at all?

Excellent, time for some repentance to the Lord then.

A= Acknowledge your wrong doings
B= Be sorry, or feel bad
C= Confess your sins to the Lord (or priesthood authority if the sin warrants!)
D= Don’t do it again

You are entirely too stupid to talk to.

No need to thank me thank the power of the Lord. All I did signpost the way out of the darkness and you allowed God to carry you out.

So, now that we have our snarks out of the way- and I hope, I really do, that what I just read was sarcasm- care to work on the fact that all you did to begin with was a bare assertion?

Because creation is an act of God and we're in Gods image. That's why it's satisfying.

Prove it.

This what you would calla "heavenly reward" it feels good because you draw yourself closer to God.

Prove it.

Exactly, now you have come to understand the true power of the Lord!

Prove it.

So the power of God is working through you even though you try to deny the existence of that which motivates you to do good? You see how the best kind of evidence is internal within you?

So, I've called you on this dishonest theft of human goodness several times now... do you really think that continuing with it is going to make your argument more convincing?

It's not religion that's the cause it's God and our relationship to God who is the cause.

Prove it.

And we get all this from?

The fact that we're beings who have evolved emergent intelligence capable of generating that stuff.

Well no there is a reason for these things, and the reason is God. Why don't you like the idea of having a good reason and explanation for things that happen?

Because a bare assertion from a proven liar isn't what I'd call a good reason, and having an explanation that you insist is correct doesn't make it correct. Do you care about having an explanation, or having the correct explanation?

On this side of eternity yes.

Prove it.

That is what you think! You don't believe in God a higher power or purpose therefore we're that are the byproduct of a natural process what bloody hell else do you think we are?

Don't tell me what I think, fool.

And all of this exists and all the natural processes it took to engineer all this exist because? What it's just randomly here for no reason?

No, not randomly: every individual action is supported by the ones that came before, and the laws of physics beyond them. The individual reactions can be small, almost negligible, but they've had billions of years to scaffold themselves up to the current state of the universe.

It's like if you had a hundred dice, and you wanted to roll all threes with them, so you keep the threes you do get and roll the ones you don't again. You aren't starting from nothing with every roll.

Why does this whole process exist in the first place?

Why would an answer of "I don't know," invalidate my thoughts? Especially given that evolution is proven.

There is a direction to it then? I think we're as developed as biological life can be myself. There is scientific backing that a larger brain to body ratio would be less efficient.

I didn't say there would be a direction, just that we will fade, and with any luck the things that will be selected for will turn out beneficial in the face of environmental and social concerns that we have no way of predicting in the future.

And eventually everything will grind down into the dust of a universe in decay and ruin for which there never was any reason or purpose for it's existence and within which we were just byproduct of organic scum? This is not an uplifting vision of humanities future or current state however you try to cut it.

Good thing you don't know that's what will happen then, isn't it? It's one possible future, but it's equally probable that life survives in some form or another, finds a way to cease the decay, or even starts again.

Besides, why does impermanence make the time we do have depressing? The fact that my lunch will end when I'm finished with it doesn't mean that lunch is useless, or that I can't enjoy it.

You're still interested in all that God represents, you're still interested in some kind of goal or purpose to life. Which you won't have without God.

I have a multitude of goals and purposes in my life, and I don't believe in your god.

It's a shame you're so reliant on brainwashing materialist dogma that you can't see what you yourself believe.

I'm not a materialist. Stop lying to everyone.

Human accomplishment and Gods accomplishment go hand in hand together we are Gods creation we're in relationship with God.

Prove it.

I keep telling you what atheism is about not necessarily what you believe if you don't agree with atheist philosophy. We would be machines made by a fluke of natural coincidence and mechanistically determined. Have a read of Stephen Hawkings the Grand Design to get more insight into this if you don't want to take my word for it you can take his.

So, if christians get to decide what atheism is- in conflict with what the word actually means- does that mean atheists get to decide what christianity is? Because I would very much like christianity to be a good rock-type Pokemon right now.

The proof is internal within you and the evidence is everywhere you look.

Nope.

It takes a dick to fuck assholes and pussies? Just your opinion though as I haven't meekly backed down under your overwhelming reason and ad hominem attacks.

No, an ad hominem would be undeserved and would be the entirety of my argument. I had plenty of other things in there with the insults. And I don't want you to meekly back down; I want you to fucking educate yourself before you go shooting your mouth off about things you don't understand.