Believing Vs Claiming to Believe

[Godscreated]

Being baptized saves no one, it no more makes you a Christian than throwing a rock at an atheist, sorry you were mislead. You know if you had studied scripture you would have come to understand this.

No you misunderstand, I understand that the baptism is merely a public admission of accepting Jesus Christ, what I am saying is that I don't ever recall a time where I didn't worship or pray to him, besides recent years of course.

Okay, I believe that, but on the other hand I haven't seen where you have demonstrated a true belief in the past. Worship and prayer means little if one is not committed to Christ. I've seen people who have been in church for many, many years and to this day I have my doubts about their salvation, they are there twice on Sunday and every Wednesday, praying and attempting worship. Salvation is not what we do, what we do is a result of salvation.

You said that the mind could make people believe things that's not true, now you're saying you wanted to feel that way, you need to choose which it is. If you choose "you wanted to feel" then you are saying free will is the right of man, a very different thing than most atheist proclaim here.

I'm saying it was both, I wanted to feel forgiven and loved, and when ones mind wants something badly then it's quite possible for it to feel these things from oneself.

I understand that, I wanted it badly myself but, I knew that God was calling me no doubt about it, I believe that children in particular but adults also can be talked into salvation by well meaning Christians, they let their zeal get out in front of God. As I said in another thread one can not come to salvation till God calls. I've actually saw this going on in a church, needless to say I was shocked because this man had been in charge of the children's church and activities for years.

As an example, that admittedly isn't quite cohesive but nonetheless I'll give it anyway, have you ever dealt with a stalker? They are so convinced their target feels things for them and the see little "signs" of it everywhere. No matter how ludicrous. Such as, oh my mailbox flag is up but there's no mail inside it must be Sally telling me she loves me.

I've never dealt with a stalker, so no I can't say I know how their minds work but, I'm sure it can't be good. So that said I'll take your word on that. People who talk themselves into a commitment to Christ without a calling are doing themselves and the church a disservice. I'm not saying it's their fault, the church has to do a better job with the responsibility God's given. The church gets out in front of God, for some reason the church falls short at times with trusting God.

Dishonest, hows that, atheist here are always comparing the scientific with the spiritual, yet when I do it you call it dishonest, par for the atheist coarse.

Dishonest in the fact that you know the types of knowledge are not the same. And I don't speak for other atheists, just myself.

Yes and okay.

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Being around believers and study groups doesn't qualify anyone to have the knowledge of scriptures, I know people that have made quotes and say they came from scripture and they are nowhere to be found in scripture. These I speak of have been in the church for decades.
If you have a well founded knowledge of scriptures why don't you use it here. I would have a better idea of what to believe about you. Until I see you do this I will continue to believe you are a "want-to- be."

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I shall, before I was not so keen to demonstrate such knowledge because I was loathe to possess it. I don't expect you to understand that but imagine you had spent your life wrongly believing something. People don't like being aware they have made mistakes, myself included.

Good I look forward to it. Knowledge should never be loathed, I came here to purposely learn more about atheist, not nearly the only reason but one of them.
Yes I do understand, I spent many years wrongly believing and I did not like knowing I had been mistaken, so I changed that once I became a Christian and started serving God.

Son, listen closely, what I'm saying here is life teaches lessons that do not come any other way than through years of living, years you have not even seen. Be patient life's lessons are on their way, there will be many you are not going to like but, those are the ones to remember. There will be many pleasant lessons too, but generally we have no trouble remembering them. Life's on the way hang on.

I have the understanding that some things in life cannot be learned until gone through, but what you're failing to take into consideration is that experience isn't always parallel with age. I'll leave it at that.

I gave that some thought but not knowing you through conversation here I couldn't know for sure what kind of life you have lived. But the future has much to offer if you listen and learn, listening is a great learning skill use it wisely.

I also apologies for anything I said that was hurtful to you.

Apology accepted, perhaps we can hope to establish a more civilized rapport in the future.

Thank you, I'm looking forward to some good conversations in the future.

I'm wondering what your grandfather feels, just a thought no need to explain.

He disagrees vehemently with my viewpoint, but is largely accepting that it's my decision.

You didn't need to respond but, since you did I would like to say this, it's good he recognizes your free will and I hope it will keep down heated arguments. I do understand his vehement disagreement, He loves you.

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I really do not think I had much if anything to do with you realizing your anger and that it may be miss placed but, I'm happy to see you realize that you need to deal with your anger. I want say good luck, I don't believe in luck in matters such as this. I have already done what I believe will help.

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No it was self introspection mostly but this conversation did serve as a catalyst to some insight on my own reactions.

I'm really glad to know you are dealing with this, anger is such a destructive emotion when out of control.

I can agree with you, people who practice Christianity as a religion and all other religions can bring ill feelings and harm, I get angry with Christians and others, and you can bet Christians do not escape my discussed with them. Please do not take this wrong I do not set myself above others, but I will always try and defend what I know as truth from God.

GC

Well I'm glad you see that it does bring harm, and I'm not blind to the good things that can come out of it but in my opinion it does not outweigh the bad by any means. Too many lives ruined and lost in the name of a deity that may or may not be there, and I'm of the opinion he isn't.

I've never denied that the practice of Christianity as a religion is harmful and it's sad that it happens, but I do believe that those who practice Christianity as a personal relationship with Christ does much good in the world.

Defense in ones own beliefs is fine, as you can see I firmly defend my own. We don't agree on them so this is where we butt heads and discuss things, hopefully more civilly in the future.

Yes, though we disagree I look forward to civil discussions in the future, I know there will be those times we get a bit aggressive in what we believe but it doesn't have to get out of hand.

GC

[Bad Wolf]

Hey GC do you believe in bigfoot?
I'm gunna keep asking until I get an actual answer. See the answer you gave that you haven't looked for him, doesn't answer the question. Its irrelevant what I want the answer to be because there are only two choices, yes or no.
This is what this situation is like:
Guy: Hey buddy, you got the time?
Me: Potato
Guy: That doesn't make sense
Me: I answered your question now leave me alone. Just because I gave you an answer you didn't want doesn't mean its wrong.

[Brakeman]

Hey GC do you believe in bigfoot?

Maybe GC had a "personal relationship" with bigfoot that involved a lot of time on his knees, and he don't want to talk about it anymore since moving on to another guy named Jesus.

[Bad Wolf]

Maybe GC had a "personal relationship" with bigfoot that involved a lot of time on his knees, and he don't want to talk about it anymore since moving on to another guy named Jesus.

Maybe he gave him up because of all the carpet burns

[freedomfromforum]

Back on topic...

I'm not entirely sure I actually believed what I claimed to believe when I was a Christian. The entire time I identified myself as a Christian I sensed a nagging dissonance between what I had 'faith' in, and what I knew to be legitimate and tangible. I was very passionate about my beliefs, just as I am now passionate about my disbelief, and I am not immune to needing to have some semblance of understanding as to why I exist. It's just that now, the understanding I seek is not found in the heavens, but within the human experience. Looking back, I can say that it was a continual balancing/juggling act, where I had to parse what I knew was real, with what I hoped was true. I can see how Christians (and other religious people) would want to cling to hope that feels good while living in a world of real pain, for I once identified with their plight. The difference is, now I don't need the fairy tales to exist.

[Neo-Scholastic]

FFF, I felt the same way until I started to understand Swedenborg. YMMV

[Tonus]

The more I talk to self proclaimed Christians (outside of AF), the more I get the feeling that most of them pretend to believe. When pressed to give a description of their belief, they either can't provide one and would rather not talk about it, or chalk it up to the way they were raised, and humbly admit they don't know very much about it.

I think that there is a genuine belief, especially for those who (like me) were raised religious. You take for granted that god exists and because that belief is absolute, you don't worry that much when a tough question comes along. Almost any explanation or rationalization will do because it conforms with that deeply-held belief.

I can remember that even the earliest questions that I had problems answering (I think the first ones were about Judas) did not make my belief in god waver. There were probably other questions and doubts that attacked that core belief that wound up leading me away from religion. I cannot recall any of them offhand, just the few uncomfortable questions that did not seem to shake my belief. But as long as that absolute belief in god existed, tested or not, I was pretty safe.

But because so much of the difficult stuff was anchored to that one assumption, it crumbled pretty easily once I gave up that belief. Until then, though, my belief in god and my ability to rationalize religious belief in the face of even overwhelming evidence was not really threatened. That is the essence of blind faith, and why I think it is so damaging to a person (and why it can make otherwise 'good' people very dangerous).