Can objective morality exist in Atheism?

[Shell B]

I disagree, but it's hardly worth arguing.

[Zen Badger]

Why do you disagree?

Come on, argue about it.

Otherwise this forum won't be any fun.

[tavarish]

world·view (wûrldvy)
n. In both senses also called Weltanschauung.
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.

This taken from the Freedictionary.com http://www.thefreedictionary.com/worldview

And I maintain that atheism IS a worldview, certainly a fundamental part of your worldviews.

Otherwise why are you all devoting so much time and effort to it?

If religion is a worldview then atheism( as an opposing belief system) has to be as well.

Our

Atheism isn't a belief system. It's a rejection of the belief in God or gods. That's it.

There is no inherent dogma, there are no underlying tenets. It doesn't pre-suppose anything, other than the rejection of a belief.

Personally, I devote time to it because I enjoy debate and also like to write in a place where I'm with like-minded individuals. It's also a place where we can escape the overly theistic tenets of western culture. Not a worldview by itself. Not by a long shot. Not unless you consider a disbelief in unicorns a worldview.

[fr0d0]

I think you're onto something Zen but the literalist nazis ( ) won't let you stray from the dictionary definition. Atheism is in many circumstances what defines a worldview to many people. If we could conduct a poll, I would think very many Atheists would hold a position in line with what is preached by the four horsemen. the Atheist worldview is propagated on sites such as this... where you pick up the traditional dogma. Even the exact phrases used are massively repeated verbatim, which Google attests to.

Take Tav's post above - it's a classic statement trotted out a million times previously.. it's like he's brainwashed - I'm sure he has thoughts of his own but have we seen evidence of anything unique from him yet? I don't think so

[Shell B]

Haha, shit, I have a deadline and I've been goofing off in here too much today, but I'll argue with you.

Going by the definition that you gave of worldview, there is no way that atheism is a worldview. My perspective of the world is based on what I know of history, what my parents taught me about life, love, happiness, science, the environment, etc., etc., as well as my life experiences. The fact that I don't believe in god doesn't lead me to care about the Darfur Genocide or the economy in my country. The fact that I am an atheist has very little to do with any of my beliefs.

Let me sum up how atheism has influenced my life. It falls rather short of a worldview.

Christian: "Don't worry about the state of things, god will take care of it."

Me: "Great, while you wait for the fucking rapture, I'll get to work."

[Zen Badger]

Atheism isn't a belief system. It's a rejection of the belief in God or gods. That's it.

But is that not a belief itself? Since we cannot conclusively disprove the existence of gods.

There is no inherent dogma, there are no underlying tenets. It doesn't pre-suppose anything, other than the rejection of a belief.

But a worldview is not the same as a religion.

Personally, I devote time to it because I enjoy debate and also like to write in a place where I'm with like-minded individuals. It's also a place where we can escape the overly theistic tenets of western culture. Not a worldview by itself. Not by a long shot. Not unless you consider a disbelief in unicorns a worldview.

But a disbelief in unicorns is a part of your worldview, a small part but a part none the less.

[theVOID]

1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.

And how is atheism an overall perspective from which one see and interprets the world? Atheism is a word which literally means "without belief in god(s)". It does not tell you anything else about what a person believes, to get that you need to generalise, to say that 'most people who are atheists believe x,y and z' which is not the same as saying 'To be an atheist you must believe x,y and z'. It would be like saying Theism is a worldview, which it is not, it is simply a core part of the wordviews such as Judaism or Christianity.

2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.

And atheism is not that either, it is a core part of various worldviews as God, being prior to the universe, must be established or dismissed before the worldview is formed, therefore all worldviews are Theistic or Atheistic, but the worldviews that are Atheistic and not the same because of their shared atheism. Humanistic naturalism, Buddhism and Taoism are atheistic worldviews, but they are far from similar descriptions of percieved reality.

This taken from the Freedictionary.com http://www.thefreedictionary.com/worldview

Yep and i agree with their definition, the problem is 'atheism' doesn't fit the criteria you are trying to use to make it a worldview.

And I maintain that atheism IS a worldview, certainly a fundamental part of your worldviews.

Yes a fundamental part of a worldview, as it is a response to a question that deals with the very origins of the universe and thus everything following this conclusion must be consistent to be valid, but it is still not a worldview.

Otherwise why are you all devoting so much time and effort to it?

Because it's interesting. My penis is also interesting, i devote more time to it than i do Atheism, yet i wouldn't consider it to be a worldview, would you?

If religion is a worldview then atheism( as an opposing belief system) has to be as well.

Except atheism is not the opposite of Religion, it is the opposite of theism, and it is possible to be a theist without being religious and it is also possible to be a religious atheist, your logic for concluding that atheism is a worldview is demonstrably flawed at a basic level.

Atheism isn't a belief system. It's a rejection of the belief in God or gods. That's it.

But is that not a belief itself? Since we cannot conclusively disprove the existence of gods.

Yes, a single belief, not a system of beliefs.

There is no inherent dogma, there are no underlying tenets. It doesn't pre-suppose anything, other than the rejection of a belief.

But a worldview is not the same as a religion.

Didn't you just try and argue that a atheism is a worldview because it is the opposite of religion? That would make religion a particular type of worldview, a subset worldview if you like.

Not only are you being illogical but also inconsistent.

Personally, I devote time to it because I enjoy debate and also like to write in a place where I'm with like-minded individuals. It's also a place where we can escape the overly theistic tenets of western culture. Not a worldview by itself. Not by a long shot. Not unless you consider a disbelief in unicorns a worldview.

But a disbelief in unicorns is a part of your worldview, a small part but a part none the less.

So disbelief in unicorns is part of a worldview but disbelief god is a worldview in it's self.

Again, you are entirely inconsistent.

[tavarish]

Take Tav's post above - it's a classic statement trotted out a million times previously.. it's like he's brainwashed - I'm sure he has thoughts of his own but have we seen evidence of anything unique from him yet? I don't think so

Did you ever get around to showing the evidence that made you believe in God?

There's a few things I am, but brainwashed is a term I'd rather keep for the ones with - you know - an actual claim or belief that is unfounded.

You dodge questions like you're getting paid to do it, and you speak circular logic like a second language.

Something like this:

I have faith that God exists objectively and cannot be tested scientifically because he needs our faith in his existence.


You're intellectually dishonest and you lack basic understanding of how logic and reasoned discussion operate.

[theVOID]

Take Tav's post above - it's a classic statement trotted out a million times previously.. it's like he's brainwashed - I'm sure he has thoughts of his own but have we seen evidence of anything unique from him yet? I don't think so

Did you ever get around to showing the evidence that made you believe in God?

There's a few things I am, but brainwashed is a term I'd rather keep for the ones with - you know - an actual claim or belief that is unfounded.

You dodge questions like you're getting paid to do it, and you speak circular logic like a second language.

Something like this:

I have faith that God exists objectively and cannot be tested scientifically because he needs our faith in his existence.


You're intellectually dishonest and you lack basic understanding of how logic and reasoned discussion operate.

Exactly

[Violet]

I have faith that God exists objectively and cannot be tested scientifically because he needs our faith in his existence.

I don't see how fr0d0 is supposed to find any evidence if the above is indeed what he believes. If a god wanted "unreasonable" faith in his existence by his subjects... and a person thus has faith in said being because of 'intuition' (if you will?):

Then why would you even ask them what evidence or reasons they have for believing in such a being?

Did you ever get around to showing the evidence that made you believe in God?

Of course he hasn't... if he did that would defeat the purpose of "God" as likely fr0d0 believes in him. What purpose? Well if you had faith in "God", you might very well know (Iow: the purpose would sound ridiculous and/or stupid to you and me, as it takes having faith in "God" to have any real meaning to begin with).

The most likely reason fr0d0 believes in "God" is that there is no reason to believe in him I'm not fr0d0 of course, but his response would probably be along those lines