Alcoholics Anonymous and the like

[Aractus]

Chas my problem with AA is that they tell people that they must accept that alcoholism is a disease that they are powerless to control. Alcoholism is an addiction and not a disease. It's a form of substance abuse. The literal definition of alcoholism is a person who's life is affected or who affects others by their drinking. Like many other questionable lifestyle choices - overweight, obesity, gambling addiction, drug abuse, etc it's a moral issue. To classify it as a disease ignores the morality and lifestyle choice and of course prioritizing your core values entirely. Do you value your wellbeing? Do you value the wellbeing of your loved ones? If you're an alcoholic you may say that you value these things, and yet your actions speak against it - because if you truly valued it then you'd put it ahead of something that you do not value - self harm and hurting your loved ones.

Addiction isn't disease. Those who are addicted to smoking don't have a disease - it may give them cancer, that's a disease, but it's unaffected by the addiction. Once you get cancer it doesn't matter if you keep smoking or if you stop smoking, if you beat the addiction or if you don't beat the addiction either way you'll still have the disease - cancer.

I've met many many alcoholics - and the sad thing is that most of their friends and family don't see it as alcoholism. Is this person an alcoholic? No. Why not? Because they don't drink before 6PM and alcoholics can't control their drinking at all. Hmm - well I ask them - the thing about alcoholism is that the alcohol affects you and/or your loved ones - does their drinking affect them? Yes. Then that's alcoholism. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter how they drink, how often they drink, what they drink, when they drink, where they drink, if their drinking is a problem they are an alcoholic because they're doing something that has obvious negative ramifications in their life.

You don't beat your wife and kids because you have a disease - you don't go to work hung-over because you have a disease - you do it because you're an alcoholic.

AA is a non-medical approach, it works yes - but not for everyone because - it's an incomplete system.

[Chas]

Chas my problem with AA is that they tell people that they must accept that alcoholism is a disease that they are powerless to control. Alcoholism is an addiction and not a disease. It's a form of substance abuse. The literal definition of alcoholism is a person who's life is affected or who affects others by their drinking. Like many other questionable lifestyle choices - overweight, obesity, gambling addiction, drug abuse, etc it's a moral issue. To classify it as a disease ignores the morality and lifestyle choice and of course prioritizing your core values entirely. Do you value your wellbeing? Do you value the wellbeing of your loved ones? If you're an alcoholic you may say that you value these things, and yet your actions speak against it - because if you truly valued it then you'd put it ahead of something that you do not value - self harm and hurting your loved ones.

Addiction isn't disease. Those who are addicted to smoking don't have a disease - it may give them cancer, that's a disease, but it's unaffected by the addiction. Once you get cancer it doesn't matter if you keep smoking or if you stop smoking, if you beat the addiction or if you don't beat the addiction either way you'll still have the disease - cancer.

Your understanding of addiction is incorrect. I don't care whether people subscribe to the disease model or not, but it is not a moral issue.

Addiction is a physical and psychological disorder that requires treatment not moralizing from ignorant people.

I've met many many alcoholics - and the sad thing is that most of their friends and family don't see it as alcoholism. Is this person an alcoholic? No. Why not? Because they don't drink before 6PM and alcoholics can't control their drinking at all. Hmm - well I ask them - the thing about alcoholism is that the alcohol affects you and/or your loved ones - does their drinking affect them? Yes. Then that's alcoholism. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter how they drink, how often they drink, what they drink, when they drink, where they drink, if their drinking is a problem they are an alcoholic because they're doing something that has obvious negative ramifications in their life.

That has absolutely nothing to do with addiction being a disease or disorder.

You don't beat your wife and kids because you have a disease - you don't go to work hung-over because you have a disease - you do it because you're an alcoholic.

You are conflating alcoholism with being drunk. Without alcohol, the alcoholic doesn't beat his wife, to use your example.

AA is a non-medical approach, it works yes - but not for everyone because - it's an incomplete system.

I certainly never claimed AA was perfect. I don't claim that AA is the best or only way for someone to get and stay sober.
I am claiming only that AA works for many people, including atheists.

[Aractus]

I didn't say AA doesn't work for many people. It's been proven that alcoholism is not a disease, did you even bother to read the link before calling me ignorant?

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Do you really want to know how AA works? It works by force of suggestion, look it up.

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If alcoholism was a disease then it would require treatment by a qualified practitioner (ie psychologist) not a 12-step program with a group of people off the street.

[Bad Writer]

Many Christian groups think of being gay as a disease, but instead of sending the "afflicted" to a certified qualified practitioner his or her family sends them to program run by idiots-for-Jeebus to scare the gay out of them. Interesting comparison, eh Aractus?

[Chas]

I didn't say AA doesn't work for many people. It's been proven that alcoholism is not a disease, did you even bother to read the link before calling me ignorant?

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Do you really want to know how AA works? It works by force of suggestion, look it up.

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If alcoholism was a disease then it would require treatment by a qualified practitioner (ie psychologist) not a 12-step program with a group of people off the street.

Did you even read your link? It does not say that it's been proven - it says that the question is not settled.

And my point was and is that it is not a moral issue. It is listed in the DSM as a recognized disorder.

[Faith No More]

No, they're not.




See how that works? You make a completely unsupported statement, so I make one in response.
Gets us nowhere. Try again if you have something of substance to say.

Yup. Thanks for the schooling, dickhole.

I was actually making a nice post with links and such while my son was whining in the background, but when the whining hit critical, I just typed that short response and posted it.

But please, do go on playing post police with someone that has been on the forum for nearly three years. I mean, I'm still not sure how this place works.

[Angrboda]

I've been in and out of various twelve step groups over the years, and had mostly positive experiences, but then I live in a very secular state, so that probably makes a difference. It's like the unitarian church I sometimes frequent, which is described as the most atheistic in the city. I didn't choose them, much less for that, they were just close by. But it points out that your experience is likely to vary from group to group, and location to location, as well as group focus. I was in Alanon, ACOA, and Nicotine Anonymous, so I likely faced a different mix. From the straight up 12 step groups, I suspect the consistency depends a lot on the local intergroup (sort of a support organization for the groups themselves). If you're looking for consistency and quality, I would suggest focusing on group therapy from a reputable clinic. Ultimately, I suppose the garbage in / garbage out principle applies; if it's run well by good people, and doesn't have a bunch of shitheads in it, it'll probably be positive; if the people are garbage, your experience will likely be, too (not implying that people with chemical dependency are good or bad). I have a concern, though I haven't researched it enough to determine its credibility, but there are reports that once you adjust AA's claimed success rate to compare apples-to-apples with other programs, AA is not a very successful program. As a person whose parents had control issues, I suspect that an addict struggling to control his behavior may find the model of control advocated by 12 step groups to be a useful tool. Beyond that, I can't say much about the deeper experience, other than that the amount of support you have in your life is one of the main factors associated with success, regardless of the behavioral issue. I never got deep enough into the programs to get into sponsors and whatnot. I tend to be very shy and somewhat timid, and that aspect literally freezes me; I don't know that I could ever walk that road, given my social anxiety issues.

[LastPoet]

I guess you don't have any actual evidence or experience then.

I do, more than you can imagine, but I am not wasting my time with self important pricks that could just use google and critical thinking skills

[Chas]

No, they're not.




See how that works? You make a completely unsupported statement, so I make one in response.
Gets us nowhere. Try again if you have something of substance to say.

Yup. Thanks for the schooling, dickhole.

I was actually making a nice post with links and such while my son was whining in the background, but when the whining hit critical, I just typed that short response and posted it.

But please, do go on playing post police with someone that has been on the forum for nearly three years. I mean, I'm still not sure how this place works.

I can only respond to what you actually post, not what you might have posted. That's how it works.

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I guess you don't have any actual evidence or experience then.

I do, more than you can imagine, but I am not wasting my time with self important pricks that could just use google and critical thinking skills

I'm sure I can imagine as I have plenty of experience, too.

I am using evidence and critical thinking. I didn't actually need to Google it.

And I suggest you stick your insults up your ass.

[LastPoet]

I'm sure I can imagine as I have plenty of experience, too.

I am using evidence and critical thinking. I didn't actually need to Google it.

And I suggest you stick your insults up your ass.

I do not need to present evidence to a habit that only needs willpower to be vanquished. What a mockery to the human kind that some idiots want to pretend that they have an Illness to recover from a habit they got into in the first place. Grow some guts for once in your life. AA and bullshit of the like just are there to make a mint out of the weak willed fools not savvy enough to fight their own fights.

As to the insults, you only get what you deserve. As easily as you gave that prickish answer on your first post in this thread you could get your lazy ass and provide an argument. What you said to FNM, I now have enough to say "Et tu Brute?"