Iesou Chresto -

[Minimalist]

http://news.discovery.com/earth/global-w...lution.htm

In recent years the flow of the river has slowed to a dirty trickle as fresh water running into the river has been replaced with sewage.

"Sadly, the lower Jordan River has long suffered from severe mismanagement with the diversion of 98 percent of its fresh water by Israel, Syria and Jordan and the discharge of untreated sewage, agricultural run-off, saline water and fish pond effluent in its place," the statement said.

The mental image of these holy asswipes being dunked in shit is simply too good!

[Mark Fulton]

Interesting take on things....I've got to think about this one a bit more.

http://jayraskin.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/294/

I proposed a number of years ago that Tacitus originally wrote that Nero sent the Procurator Porcius Festus to put down the Christians/Chrestians.

Christian interpolators, misunderstanding, changed it to Pontius Pilate, and they changed Chrestus to Christ and Nero to Tiberius.

Thus the original read:
Quote:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite punishments on a class hated for their disgraceful acts, called Chrestians by the populace. Chrestus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty (i.e., Crucifixion) during the reign of Nero at the hands of one of our procurators, Porcius Festus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular.

Note what Josephus (book 20:8.10) says about the procurator Porcius Festus whom Nero sent:
Quote:
10. Upon Festus’s coming into Judea, it happened that Judea was afflicted by the robbers, while all the villages were set on fire, and plundered by them. And then it was that the sicarii, as they were called, who were robbers, grew numerous. They made use of small swords, not much different in length from the Persian acinacae, but somewhat crooked, and like the Roman sicae, [or sickles,] as they were called; and from these weapons these robbers got their denomination; and with these weapons they slew a great many; for they mingled themselves among the multitude at their festivals, when they were come up in crowds from all parts to the city to worship God, as we said before, and easily slew those that they had a mind to slay. They also came frequently upon the villages belonging to their enemies, with their weapons, and plundered them, and set them on fire. So Festus sent forces, both horsemen and footmen, to fall upon those that had been seduced by a certain impostor, who promised them deliverance and freedom from the miseries they were under, if they would but follow him as far as the wilderness. Accordingly, those forces that were sent destroyed both him that had deluded them, and those that were his followers also.

RE "I proposed a number of years ago that Tacitus originally wrote that Nero sent the Procurator Porcius Festus to put down the Christians/Chrestians."

Its highly unlikely that Nero persecuted Christians. Consider what Paul wrote...to "Christians".....

“Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.” (Romans 13:1-7 KJV.) A government agent wrote this, not a Jesus fan who had seen the light!

Also, he finished off his letter to the Philippians:
“All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar’s household” (Phil. 4:22, KJV.) This confirms that he had contact with the Emperor Nero’s family.

[Minimalist]

Josephus makes it clear, over and over, what he thought of people who upset the status quo. It's one of the reasons why the Testimonium Flavianum sticks out as such an obvious forgery.

Ever run across Ken Humphreys?

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/epistles2.htm

"The letters, to which the apostle is indebted for the largest part of his fame, seem to have been forgotten for almost an entire century, until we encounter them in the middle of the second century in the hands of the heretic Marcion, who was excommunicated by the Catholic church in 144 CE."

– H. Detering (The Falsified Paul, p60)

[Confused Ape]

Ever run across Ken Humphreys?

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/epistles2.htm

"The letters, to which the apostle is indebted for the largest part of his fame, seem to have been forgotten for almost an entire century, until we encounter them in the middle of the second century in the hands of the heretic Marcion, who was excommunicated by the Catholic church in 144 CE."

– H. Detering (The Falsified Paul, p60)

There's also this on the page.

Prior to 2nd century heretic Marcion we enter a void in which Paul's epistles are unquoted and Christian writers show no knowledge of the apostle.

Justin Martyr Letters

In Justin's works, distinct references are found to Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, and possible ones to Philippians, Titus, and 1 Timothy. It seems likely that he also knew Hebrews and 1 John.

What if there were texts going round which a lot of people used as references? If Marcion forged Paul's letters it would be in his interests to promote the idea that Paul said these things first. It would be in Tertullian's interests as well because, going by what he said in his 'Against Marcion', he was rewriting the letters to suit his own agenda.

If the texts which everyone quoted from were a bit of embarrassment they would have conveniently disappeared.

[Mark Fulton]

Josephus makes it clear, over and over, what he thought of people who upset the status quo. It's one of the reasons why the Testimonium Flavianum sticks out as such an obvious forgery.

Ever run across Ken Humphreys?

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/epistles2.htm

"The letters, to which the apostle is indebted for the largest part of his fame, seem to have been forgotten for almost an entire century, until we encounter them in the middle of the second century in the hands of the heretic Marcion, who was excommunicated by the Catholic church in 144 CE."

– H. Detering (The Falsified Paul, p60)

Yes, I've learnt a lot from Mr Humphreys.

It is interesting that it was Marcion who introduced Paul's letters to Rome in the 140s. This is what I think happened....

There were three main “Christian” theology schools (or churches) in Rome in the 140’s and 150’s CE: Marcion’s, Valentinus’, and Justin’s. The majority of Christians believed in Marcionism and Gnosticism (championed by Valentinus.) In opposition to these was Justin’s movement, the minority, which was closest to what eventually became Catholicism, so it’s mainly their writings that have survived. They all conveniently, or unknowingly, disregarded or denigrated Nazarene beliefs.

Marcion (110–160 CE) was a key figure in Christianity’s history. He may have been the son of a bishop, and hailed from Pontus, a region on the southern coast of the Black Sea in modern Turkey. He was a ship owner and financially well off. He travelled to Rome about 142–143 CE, and soon attracted a large following, as his wealth allowed him influence and position. (http://www.gnosis.org/library/meadmarcion.htm, http://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/fff/fff38.htm).

Some sources claim that Marcion was the first person to promote the Pauline Epistles, as prior to his emergence in Rome, we don’t directly hear of Paul, (other than in Ignatius’ letters, and they’re of doubtful authenticity.) No one knows how Marcion came across Paul’s letters, yet it’s possible that without Marcion, they might never have been published. Some commentators have hypothesized that Paul was, in fact, Marcion himself. I think that highly unlikely, as it would take a literary genius to invent Paul’s character.

The hero of Marcion’s canon was named Isu Chrestos - not “Jesus” or Yeshua. This is one of the reasons I suspect when “Paul” mentions “Jesus,” “Lord Jesus,” or “Jesus Christ,” such references are interpolations.

Marcion was a Docetist; someone who believed Christ was a spirit, an entity who sprung full-grown from the mind of God. Marcion’s (and Paul’s) Christ rescued people from the unattractive God of the Old Testament and the obligations of the Torah. He wasn’t the Messiah of Israel, the hero of Jewish expectations, but the savior of mankind.

Marcion thought that only Paul had understood the message of salvation facilitated by belief in Christ, which was precisely what the narcissistic Paul claimed too.

Marcion’s Pauline Epistles were Romans, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Laodiceans (Ephesians,) Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, and Philemon.

Marcion was an anti-Semite, and believed that people had inserted the Judaic elements of Paul’s writings after Paul’s death. He completely ignored the Old Testament and any other references to Judaism. His followers were the first Christians to completely break away from Judaism. He (correctly) regarded Yahweh as a primitive god: jealous, envious, vindictive, angry, cruel, intrusive, and judgmental. He didn’t deny Yahweh’s existence, and even acknowledged that he was the creator of the universe, but claimed that an entirely different, previously unknown, god had sent Isu Chrestos. This new god was one of love and benevolence, and had sent Isu Chrestos to replace Judaism’s legalism with mercy and tolerance.

Marcion’s Gospel is very similar to the canonical Luke, although about one third shorter. He called it the Euangelion—the “Good News”—and it wasn’t attributed to an author. The first three chapters of today’s Luke weren’t in it, so it lacked any genealogy, family, or birth story for Isu Chrestos. It’s commonly stated that Marcion shortened the original Luke; however, given that Marcion’s version probably appeared long before today’s “Luke,” it’s more likely that Marcion’s version was closer to the original.

He was the first commentator, in 140 CE, to propose the existence of a new canon, and therefore that a totally new religion, separate from Judaism, had come into being. His canon consisted only of the Euangelion and Paul’s ten letters. Marcion was, therefore, in one sense, the founder of New Testament Christianity.

His complete break with the Jewish epic was a direct challenge to emerging Catholic Christian orthodoxy. He was excommunicated from the Catholic Church around 144 CE, and labeled as a heretic. Polycarp, who couldn’t cope with competition, called him “the first born of Satan,” and other church fathers denounced him. That didn’t stop him. He returned to Asia Minor and continued to spread his ideas. His church expanded throughout much of the known world within his lifetime and remained very influential throughout the second century, when it was more successful than Catholicism. It continued to expand for more than a century, persevering alongside Catholic Christianity, and was its equal well into the fourth century, at which time the Catholics gained political power and forced the rejection and disbanding of most, but not all, Marcionite churches.

One of the oldest Christian churches ever found is Marcionite, dates from 318 CE, and is located in Syria. The inscription on a wall is dedicated to “The Lord and Savior Isu Chrestos.”

In its opposition to Marcion, the Roman Catholic Church would identify itself as the heir to Jewish tradition, and even claimed itself to be the new “true Israel.” So the fact that Marcion was opposed to Judaism meant he had enormous influence on the evolution of Catholic Christianity.

The Roman Church eventually pinched many of Marcion’s patrons, and Paul’s teachings became the essence of Catholic Christianity. Hence Marcion’s ghost is very much alive in Christian churches today. (http://messianicpublications.com/daniel-...f-marcion/). His anti-Jewish, anti-Old Testament, pro-Paul heresy lives on, but it was dogma that would have dismayed Jesus.

Paul had proclaimed that Christ’s return was imminent, but as the second century rolled by Christ failed to make a reappearance. In the mid-second century, Paul’s Christ needed to be anchored in history, and the Gospel of Mark was the answer. The exact relationship between Paul’s writings and the Gospels is a topic of much conjecture, yet I suspect that Paul’s mythical son of God, the Christ, was only written into Mark’s story at this later stage. By then, any Jewish resistance to Paul’s ideas about the nature of Christ would have been half-hearted at best. The Jews had had their society and their messianic hopes cut to ribbons, so were in no state to argue over theology and history, and what Yeshua’s descendants thought didn’t matter anyway. The description of Jesus reappearing after his death wasn’t included in the original edition of Mark, an omission fixed by interpolators. Mark’s Gospel began to take shape; Jesus the son of God went from life to death to life again, as per Paul’s Christ.

To the growing group of Gentile Christians, who were mainly uneducated souls, the story of the son of God who died for them and promised them eternal paradise if they didn’t cause trouble had great appeal.

[Minimalist]

The citation for that Wiki quote goes back to some German-Russian theologian - of course - in 1914, Ape. I do recall something in which it was noted that Justyn equated something in gluke with Paul - but the problem there is that gluke was the other part of Marcion's canon to begin with.

Wheels within wheels with this stuff.

---

I think that highly unlikely, as it would take a literary genius to invent Paul’s character.

How much of a genius do you have to be to invent Luke Skywalker, Kermit the Frog, or Fanny Hill? Someone invented "jesus" too, replete with mom the virgin, dad the cuckold and a hell of an ending.

"Paul" plays the same role as mohammed later did for the Caliphs. His job was to bring the good news to the arabs. Coincidentally - or not - the message was always the same. STFU and do what you are told.

All religions have that in common!

[Mark Fulton]

The citation for that Wiki quote goes back to some German-Russian theologian - of course - in 1914, Ape. I do recall something in which it was noted that Justyn equated something in gluke with Paul - but the problem there is that gluke was the other part of Marcion's canon to begin with.

Wheels within wheels with this stuff.

---

I think that highly unlikely, as it would take a literary genius to invent Paul’s character.

How much of a genius do you have to be to invent Luke Skywalker, Kermit the Frog, or Fanny Hill? Someone invented "jesus" too, replete with mom the virgin, dad the cuckold and a hell of an ending.

"Paul" plays the same role as mohammed later did for the Caliphs. His job was to bring the good news to the arabs. Coincidentally - or not - the message was always the same. STFU and do what you are told.

All religions have that in common!

Mmmmmm.

So do you think Marcion, or someone else, invented "Paul?"

I doubt it. Paul was irritable, anxious and inconsistent, and "full of shit." If he'd been an invention, he would have been "smoother" and more consistent. I doubt he would have been portrayed as at odds with the Nazarenes.

Paul's writings (as a whole) (the ones said to be his, anyway) strike me as "real" as in his quirks and personality shines out of them. I'm sure, however, they've been chopped and changed and interpolated.

But...who knows?

---

The citation for that Wiki quote goes back to some German-Russian theologian - of course - in 1914, Ape. I do recall something in which it was noted that Justyn equated something in gluke with Paul - but the problem there is that gluke was the other part of Marcion's canon to begin with.

Wheels within wheels with this stuff.

---

I think that highly unlikely, as it would take a literary genius to invent Paul’s character.

How much of a genius do you have to be to invent Luke Skywalker, Kermit the Frog, or Fanny Hill? Someone invented "jesus" too, replete with mom the virgin, dad the cuckold and a hell of an ending.

"Paul" plays the same role as mohammed later did for the Caliphs. His job was to bring the good news to the arabs. Coincidentally - or not - the message was always the same. STFU and do what you are told.

All religions have that in common!

Re ""Paul" plays the same role as mohammed later did for the Caliphs. His job was to bring the good news to the arabs. Coincidentally - or not - the message was always the same. STFU and do what you are told.

All religions have that in common! "

Absolutely agreed.

[Minimalist]

Paul was irritable, anxious and inconsistent, and "full of shit." If he'd been an invention, he would have been "smoother" and more consistent. I doubt he would have been portrayed as at odds with the Nazarenes.

Assuming that the "paul" of Marcion was identical to the "paul" which emerged after his makeover by the proto-orthodox...to borrow Ehrman's title for them. We also have the "paul" of Acts which I guess we can dismiss as a figment of someone's imagination.

But, I don't know why any literary figure has to be "white bread." A few warts make him more interesting. Certainly Yahweh is a bloody old bastard. Talk about warts!

[Confused Ape]

Wheels within wheels with this stuff.

I've spent many a happy hour following up leads on Jesus Never Existed Com. There was so much stuff written and rewritten to suit various agendas that it's impossible to tell what it started out as. We'll never know because the originals, along with any other works which conflicted with these different factions' agendas, mysteriously disappeared.

[Minimalist]

There is an assumption there that it started out "written" at all. These were largely pre-literate societies. Only a relative handful could read or write. The most likely genesis is that these began as stories, 'tall tales' if you would which were eventually written down. Who knows what they were originally.