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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 1:42 pm
(June 9, 2014 at 1:37 pm)mickiel Wrote: THATS what I been screaming, it DID BIRTH IT! I think you're missing the point: even with the considerable bias that would have come from being a god-fearing supporter of the church, scientists started us down the road that would overturn those closely-held beliefs. Even with the advantage that would come from being able to influence their work, the church couldn't stop science from pushing its teachings aside once it got a head of steam.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 2:58 pm
(June 9, 2014 at 1:42 pm)Tonus Wrote: (June 9, 2014 at 1:37 pm)mickiel Wrote: THATS what I been screaming, it DID BIRTH IT! I think you're missing the point: even with the considerable bias that would have come from being a god-fearing supporter of the church, scientists started us down the road that would overturn those closely-held beliefs. Even with the advantage that would come from being able to influence their work, the church couldn't stop science from pushing its teachings aside once it got a head of steam.
I think that is true, I agree with that. But it cannot be ignored that science was HEAVILY influence by the church, look at these Christian scientist, ( some theologians), who actually FATHERED their disciplines in science; 17 founding fathers of science were raised and FATHERED by the church;
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/genera...l-113.html
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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 3:14 pm
(June 9, 2014 at 2:58 pm)mickiel Wrote: I think that is true, I agree with that. But it cannot be ignored that science was HEAVILY influence by the church, look at these Christian scientist, ( some theologians), who actually FATHERED their disciplines in science; 17 founding fathers of science were raised and FATHERED by the church;
Most things were heavily influenced by the church considering they refused to leave anyone the fuck alone throughout the last couple thousand years. They killed scientists that disagreed with them when they had the power to do so. It's like saying a scientist that was beaten as a child was heavily influenced by their abuser. It's true but it doesn't make it a good thing or give the abuser any real or deserved credit for the findings of the scientists.
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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 3:14 pm
So in a way, religion got humanity through its dark and ignorant period, giving us the time we needed to finally grow up?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 3:19 pm
(June 9, 2014 at 2:58 pm)mickiel Wrote: I think that is true, I agree with that. But it cannot be ignored that science was HEAVILY influence by the church, look at these Christian scientist, ( some theologians), who actually FATHERED their disciplines in science; 17 founding fathers of science were raised and FATHERED by the church;
I will try to demonstrate how ridiculous your reasoning is....
Not all scientists were theists, but all scientists were a product of fucking; therefore fucking is the real parent of science.
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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 3:22 pm
(This post was last modified: June 9, 2014 at 3:25 pm by mickiel.)
(June 9, 2014 at 3:14 pm)Insanity Wrote: (June 9, 2014 at 2:58 pm)mickiel Wrote: I think that is true, I agree with that. But it cannot be ignored that science was HEAVILY influence by the church, look at these Christian scientist, ( some theologians), who actually FATHERED their disciplines in science; 17 founding fathers of science were raised and FATHERED by the church;
Most things were heavily influenced by the church considering they refused to leave anyone the fuck alone throughout the last couple thousand years. They killed scientists that disagreed with them when they had the power to do so. It's like saying a scientist that was beaten as a child was heavily influenced by their abuser. It's true but it doesn't make it a good thing or give the abuser any real or deserved credit for the findings of the scientists.
Well I agree, and I have not given the church credit for any scientific discipline.
(June 9, 2014 at 3:14 pm)Tonus Wrote: So in a way, religion got humanity through its dark and ignorant period, giving us the time we needed to finally grow up?
Yes, I agree with that. Religion was there, doing its thing, all of which was not evil; but it worked its way to the top, just like all other human disciplines did. And it became corrupt, just like all other humans on top have.
You think science will be immune to this corruption when they are on top?
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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 3:26 pm
(June 9, 2014 at 3:22 pm)mickiel Wrote: Well I agree, and I have not given the church credit for any scientific discipline.
So what's your point exactly? So far I gather that large organisations that exert control over populations do in fact to some extent effect those in those populations and by extension future disciplines of those populations. Which means all of about nothing.
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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 3:41 pm
(This post was last modified: June 9, 2014 at 3:43 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(June 9, 2014 at 1:13 pm)mickiel Wrote: I have never said the church predated science; never!
So you think children precede their parents? Because, if not, your claim that science was once a child of the church is completely devoid of meaning. And if so, you're an idiot.
If you can admit it was a stupid claim to make, you can get on with your life a wiser man. We've all said things we didn't really think through, there's no shame in it. Around here, being able to admit when you're wrong does wonders for one's credibility.
(June 9, 2014 at 1:37 pm)mickiel Wrote: THATS what I been screaming, it DID BIRTH IT!
The Church can't have birthed something that existed before it did. Why on earth would you scream something so profoundly stupid?
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 4:46 pm
(June 9, 2014 at 3:22 pm)mickiel Wrote: You think science will be immune to this corruption when they are on top? No, I think science is as subject to human error and corruption as anything else. But it has the advantage of using a method that can help us to find and eliminate that corruption and continue to develop our knowledge and understanding of the world and the universe around us.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Science was once a child of the church.
June 9, 2014 at 4:50 pm
(This post was last modified: June 9, 2014 at 4:52 pm by mickiel.)
(June 9, 2014 at 4:46 pm)Tonus Wrote: (June 9, 2014 at 3:22 pm)mickiel Wrote: You think science will be immune to this corruption when they are on top? No, I think science is as subject to human error and corruption as anything else. But it has the advantage of using a method that can help us to find and eliminate that corruption and continue to develop our knowledge and understanding of the world and the universe around us.
There is no advantage in science, it will not escape the same results as any group of humans in history has shown.
(June 9, 2014 at 3:41 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: (June 9, 2014 at 1:13 pm)mickiel Wrote: I have never said the church predated science; never!
So you think children precede their parents? Because, if not, your claim that science was once a child of the church is completely devoid of meaning. And if so, you're an idiot.
If you can admit it was a stupid claim to make, you can get on with your life a wiser man. We've all said things we didn't really think through, there's no shame in it. Around here, being able to admit when you're wrong does wonders for one's credibility.
(June 9, 2014 at 1:37 pm)mickiel Wrote: THATS what I been screaming, it DID BIRTH IT!
The Church can't have birthed something that existed before it did. Why on earth would you scream something so profoundly stupid?
It birthed 17 different new sciences and their founding fathers, whose names I have listed, being able to see that may do wonders for you're fault finding needs.
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