The Long and the Short of it.

[fr0d0]

That doesn't change the fact that it's clearly illogical to dismiss God because of lack of empirical evidence.

You assert that it is logical to believe in the illogical.

I'll wait for the tangible evidence. Give me a call when you find some.

Nope. That's 2 illogical statements to you. Not going very well is it?

[Paul the Human]

Really, fr0d0? Silly word games? It would be illogical to say that a lack of evidence to support the claim that god exists proves that he does not. It is not illogical to admit that the evidence points to answers other than god and decide that 'god' is the least likely thing to exist according to the known laws of the universe.

An argument about logic. Heheh! From the guy who says, "God just is." The irony is not lost on me. Good show!

[Watson]

I think what fr0do was saying is that the demand for empirical evidence for God is an illogical one and that it cannot be met. It's a loaded and rigged demand from the beginning. I don't think fr0do was making a comment about evidence in general.

[Paul the Human]

Oh. Well then. I... umm...

Demanding it may be illogical, because it's quite clear that there simply isn't any. Being of the opinion that anything that exists, including gods, should be provable via empirical evidence is not illogical. Especially when the 'thing' in question is supposed to be a sentient being that wishes to be worshiped! It is illogical that there is no empirical evidence that god exists... if he does, indeed, exist.

[Watson]

Lol Here come the circles!

This is where belief comes in. I know you may not think this way, but from a believer's perspective, everything can be and is empirical proof for God. The hitch for atheists, of course, is that you cannot have it proven that this is God...you must believe it.

Think of the universe, for a moment, as a strange structure with one inner building and one outer building. The inner building is the material, physical reality of the universe which we live in. The outer building is God and the spiritual realm which He resides in and is, in fact, synonymous with. Imagine that this outer structure has a hand in keeping the inner one together and up and running.

From the inside of the inner building, it is impossible to comprehend the entirety of the outer structure. However, since the outer building has an affect on and is, in fact, keeping the inner building working, one can begin to understand the mechanizations of the outer building by observing how the inner one works and what results lie before you in the form of the physical reality.

Now just imagine, like I said, that the inner building is our universe, and that the outer building is God. This requires belief; no hard evidence or shred of physical 'proof' can be provided for the outer building, but by observing th einner building and assuming the outer, we begin to understand the inner building much more than we would without the outer one.

[Paul the Human]

Lol Here come the circles!

*laughs* That's the point, exactly. It's a fun game sometimes.

This is where belief comes in. I know you may not think this way, but from a believer's perspective, everything can be and is empirical proof for God. The hitch for atheists, of course, is that you cannot have it proven that this is God...you must believe it.

Think of the universe, for a moment, as a strange structure with one inner building and one outer building. The inner building is the material, physical reality of the universe which we live in. The outer building is God and the spiritual realm which He resides in and is, in fact, synonymous with. Imagine that this outer structure has a hand in keeping the inner one together and up and running.

From the inside of the inner building, it is impossible to comprehend the entirety of the outer structure. However, since the outer building has an affect on and is, in fact, keeping the inner building working, one can begin to understand the mechanizations of the outer building by observing how the inner one works and what results lie before you in the form of the physical reality.

Now just imagine, like I said, that the inner building is our universe, and that the outer building is God. This requires belief; no hard evidence or shred of physical 'proof' can be provided for the outer building, but by observing th einner building and assuming the outer, we begin to understand the inner building much more than we would without the outer one.

I've read better sci-fi, but that wasn't terrible. Haha! The first line nailed it: "This is where belief comes in." The short of it is this: I do not believe a word of that is true. In fact, I think the only thing at this point that could convince me god(s) exist would be to meet one and have him prove it to me.

Same goes for psychics, aliens, and elves.

[Watson]

I would point out here that you probably already have met God and just don't recognize it as such...but we know where that will lead.

And, as we have also discussed, belief itself is a choice from my perspective, and not a choice from your's. It's all so confusing, haha!

[Caecilian]

Now just imagine, like I said, that the inner building is our universe, and that the outer building is God. This requires belief; no hard evidence or shred of physical 'proof' can be provided for the outer building, but by observing th einner building and assuming the outer, we begin to understand the inner building much more than we would without the outer one.

You say that belief in the outer building (god) gives 'greater understanding' of the inner building (the material Universe).

What, exactly, does this 'greater understanding' consist of? What phenomena can you understand with reference to god, but not otherwise?

I can see some pseudo-philosophical gibberish in the offing here.

[Watson]

Human nature, human emotions, human experiences, serendipitous moments, and one of the most important, love.

[Caecilian]

Human nature, human emotions, human experiences, serendipitous moments, and one of the most important, love.

Thats not much of an answer.

What does your greater understanding consist of? How does 'god' help you understand, say, human emotions better? What insights do you have on emotions that you wouldn't have without 'god'?