U.S.A. versus u.k

[Paul the Human]

I don't know what it's like in the U.K., beyond the picture I get from the Brits at these forums, but I can tell that the U.S is far, far closer to theocracy than the U.K. Not that we're close, but we sure do have a lot of vocal supporters of such an idea.

I think our sheer size has a lot to do with it, actually. Groups of people, some very, very small, others quite large, and all sizes in-between, are relatively isolated from the other groups of people. The resultant number of subcultures in this country is almost unbelievable. The variances in what these subcultures believe and the opinions that they hold literally spans the entire spectrum (and beyond).

Look at Texas, for example. That one state is larger than all of England. A full 1/3 of people in that state think that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time. And there are 49 more places where such stupidity grows in isolated little backwater towns. We aren't all grouped together in a relatively small area. There are empty places bigger than the U.K. between some of these subculture groups.

All in all, the number of loony-toon fundies per capita is probably not that much different between the U.S. and the U.K. But when you have the numbers that we do, you hear them when they shout... and they do so love to shout.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Describing the US as a theocracy is like calling Obama a communist.

Freedom of and from religion is guaranteed in the US constitution. That one may be reviled as a nonbeliever is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that one is free to believe or not and not to be arrested,forced to pay tithes, put in prison or murdered.That is not the case in theocracies such as say Saudi Arabia or Iran.

Even in 'moderate' Malaysia, a Muslim apostate will be put in prison for two years for that apostasy. It is illegal to proselytise a Muslim or to offer a Muslim alcohol.. The religious police will arrest Muslims for say eating or drinking in public during Ramadam (in daylight hours)

In my opinion a country may only be accurately described as a theocracy when there is no separation of church and state,and religion controls the police,army and judiciary. This is not the case in the US or UK.

Freedom of speech includes the right of dissent. Believers and non believers are free to constantly revile one another.

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Tangent: Australians have a healthy contempt for clergy and people who wear their religion on their sleeves. Only 8% of our population admit to regular church attendance.

Things have become so desperate that the Catholic church in Tasmania recently imported three African missionaries. I kid you not.

Three Nigerian priests, Fathers Felix, Christopher and Kene, are sent as missionaries to Australia's island state. After overcoming a fear that they will die from the cold, and enduring a month of 'enculturation' (they speak fluent English but struggle with Strine), each is posted to a remote corner of the state.

http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=21680

[Paul the Human]

I didn't say the U.S. is a theocracy... just that we came closer to being one than the U.K., which was an exaggeration meant to imply that we have a lot of powerful religious groups here that have far too much influence in the policy making aspects of our government. Evangelicals and lunatic fundies have way too much power here. It's actually frightening.

[Caecilian]

I think that we need to say what a theocracy is. A dictionary is a good place to start:

the·oc·racy (t̸hē äk′rə sē)

noun pl. theocracies -·cies

1.lit., the rule of a state by God or a god
2.government by a person or persons claiming to rule with divine authority
3.a country governed in this way
Origin: Gr theokratia: see theo- & -cracy

From yourdictionary.com

So do American politicians claim to rule with divine authority? Well, unlike UK politicians, very frequently they do. Some George W Bush quotes:

I don't see how you can be president at least from my perspective, how you can be president, without a relationship with the Lord.

God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam [Hussein], which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East.

I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job.

And we base it, our history, and our decision making, our future, on solid values. The first value is, we're all God's children.

Seven states have religious tests for public office: N Carolina, S Carolina, Arkansas, Texas, Tennessee, Pennsylvania and Maryland. These laws are unenforcable due to the constitution, but they haven't been repealed. Being religious is in practice a requirement for public office everywhere in the US- in order to get elected to anything, you have to make a profession of faith.

Add in: The enormous influence of thr religious right. They dominate the Republican Party.

Personally, I wouldn't say that the US is a theocracy. I'd say that its a state with democratic, oligarchic and theocratic elements. And I'm glad that I don't live there.

[binny]

Trust me, it sucks sometimes.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I didn't say the U.S. is a theocracy... just that we came closer to being one than the U.K., which was an exaggeration meant to imply that we have a lot of powerful religious groups here that have far too much influence in the policy making aspects of our government. Evangelicals and lunatic fundies have way too much power here. It's actually frightening.

Ah.I misread


There are certainly some parts of the US in which I would not like to live. Our bible belt is in Queensland,which also has a disproportionate number of scams and conmen. It was was also the home of Australia's version Huey 'Kingfisher Long, Joh Bejelke Peterson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joh_Bjelke-Petersen

It's ironic about religious dominance in American after the trouble Thomas Jefferson went to keep church and state separate. The First Amendment was a world first and does in fact guarantee freedom FROM religion as much as freedom OF religion.

Tangent: did you know the US was the first county on earth to grant equal citizenship to Jews?* (from independence)




*source; documentary; 'The American Future; A History by Simon Schama'

[Eilonnwy]

I've heard on theory on why the US is so religious, and the UK not. The UK has a state religion, the US doesn't. As a result the religions here get competitive, stir up fervor. It's an interesting thought, I have no idea if there's any stock in it.