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(June 25, 2010 at 4:38 pm)Godschild Wrote: ACE they are great musicians and they are burnt out druggies who lived outside of reality most of their lives. Yes they were at one time my favorite musicians so I do know something about them. By the way not to very long ago Paul invited Phil Kegey to a party and they sat down and played together for a while, this shows that an atheist and a christian can have a mutual respect for each other in life, just thought you might find that interesting.
Aye, christians and atheists can easily have mutual respect for each other. I should know. I have religious friends and never do we speak of religion. In fact, I helped one of my religious friends get a girl friend. He helped me when it came to taking on bullies.
what I don't like with theists is their need to call atheism a religion when it's not. To say atheists are in denial when that too is wrong and to shove their religious belief where not wanted. Not all theists are like that, some actually understand atheists and atheism. Some keep their religious beliefs to themselves. It's those kind of theists I like and can easily get on with. Outside this computer, religion is never mentioned. Not once. Not even by my theist friends.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
(June 25, 2010 at 4:38 pm)Godschild Wrote: ACE they are great musicians and they are burnt out druggies who lived outside of reality most of their lives. Yes they were at one time my favorite musicians so I do know something about them. By the way not to very long ago Paul invited Phil Kegey to a party and they sat down and played together for a while, this shows that an atheist and a christian can have a mutual respect for each other in life, just thought you might find that interesting.
Quote:Aye, christians and atheists can easily have mutual respect for each other. I should know. I have religious friends and never do we speak of religion. In fact, I helped one of my religious friends get a girl friend. He helped me when it came to taking on bullies.
what I don't like with theists is their need to call atheism a religion when it's not. To say atheists are in denial when that too is wrong and to shove their religious belief where not wanted. Not all theists are like that, some actually understand atheists and atheism. Some keep their religious beliefs to themselves. It's those kind of theists I like and can easily get on with. Outside this computer, religion is never mentioned. Not once. Not even by my theist friends.
I have friends who are nonbelievers and I sometimes try to initiate a conversation about God but when I know that they do not I drop it and go on to another subject. We have a mutual respect for each other and get along rather well. I've never said that atheism is a religion and do not see how that is even possible and if I've ever said that atheist are in denial I'm sorry (I do not believe I have said that).
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(June 25, 2010 at 6:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: I've never said that atheism is a religion and do not see how that is even possible and if I've ever said that atheist are in denial I'm sorry (I do not believe I have said that).
I don't recall you saying such things but others on here have. I tend to react strongly to such ignorant talk.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
June 26, 2010 at 3:20 am (This post was last modified: June 26, 2010 at 3:21 am by tackattack.)
(June 25, 2010 at 8:34 am)Welsh cake Wrote:
tackattack Wrote:b- The love being received is unconditional
Again, you keep on asserting that inane drivel of a phrase inspired by the 60s LSD drug culture, and not recited from the Scriptures in either Old or New Testaments. It is taught that God's love is unfailing and unilateral but never is it professed to be unconditional because love is conditional. The Bible teaches sinners have to be a worthy reciprocal of God's love and grace, they must love him first by keeping his commandments and/or accept his son's (Jesus) 'sacrifice'. Should a sinner reject these conditions, they lose God's love forever and there is only the damnation of his stored-up wrath left for them:
Quote:John 3:36 (NIV) "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Ok the scipture doesn't say UNconditional. I'll stop calling it that if it sounds better to atheists. God's love is only conditional on it's acceptance. It also doesn't end upon refusal, it's as everlasting and patient as God is.
(June 25, 2010 at 8:34 am)Welsh cake Wrote:
tackattack Wrote:c- The love being received isn't mercurial
Love like emotion is mercurial, because for better or for worse we are liable to be erratic around each other, that's life for you Tack, its essentially unpredictable by nature, if God's love was constant Hell wouldn't exist.
human love is mercurial because human emotion is erratic and that is life on Earth. But if God's nature is loveeeee, if he's an absolute why would we expect it to be mercurial? IMO it isn't.
(June 25, 2010 at 8:34 am)Welsh cake Wrote:
tackattack Wrote:d- The love being received is eternal
You saved the most absurd premise for last.
Quote:Luke 13:3 (DVP) [Jesus:] "...If you do not repent, then you will all perish..."
The Biblical God doesn't demonstrate the "eternal love" you speak of for two reasons:
1. He's a monstrous power-mad tyrant who demands to be loved under penalty of death/destruction/suffering.
2. Eternal love, like Unconditional love, is a nonsensical statement.
Eternity (infinity) like absolute certainty is a man-made concept; you can't measure it, you can't achieve it, you can't demonstrate it, and worse, you can't even falsify it if you had to. It would be far more credible for you to state its love with regards to longevity is Transfinite.
Love always perseveres.. that's scriptural. I'll rphrase so as not to use absolutist language. As long as time exists God's love will persevere.
(June 25, 2010 at 8:34 am)Welsh cake Wrote:
tackattack Wrote:3- I do appreciate you're living in a state of denial of God
Dude, don't make erroneous assertions about me, just get back to your argument; an atheist has a lack of belief in god or gods - I believe there is no irrefutable or sufficient evidence for disproving or proving the existence of god(s). I specifically fall into the category of weak atheism/ empirical agnosticism.
Only when there is empirical evidence for god's existence would I then be denying him/her/it by not believing, which is something theists have never once presented or demonstrated.
That statement is based off of you stating you live in a state of separation of God. Feel free to rephrase and I'll retract it. If you live in a state separated from God then you're living conscious of God and just in denial of him and living contrary to him, IMO. If this wasn't your intent by this statement (because this isn't an agnostic or weak athesitic stantpoint) then feel free to rephrase. It wasn't erroneous on my part as an assertion, just an observation.
(June 25, 2010 at 8:34 am)Welsh cake Wrote:
tackattack Wrote:To answer your question, what he has planned for you is an eternity of his love unless you actively deny evidence that God exists.
I rest my case. Even you can't accept there's such a thing as love without conditions.
Ok we've resolved that it has one condition.
(June 25, 2010 at 8:34 am)Welsh cake Wrote:
tackattack Wrote:I don't believe God eternally punishes someone unworthy of that, it far more likely that it's simply oblivion.
Do I deserve oblivion at the hands of your God-concept for simply being an atheist? For existing? For simply cherishing this one-and-only-life we have together, and thereby trying to promote a cooperative society?
Do I think you deserve oblivion for cherishing this one life, knowing the possibility of God existing, being confronted with God in the afterlife and denying him.. yes I think oblivion is just. If you're only interested in this life and that's all you get when the chips are down I don't see the big deal.
(June 25, 2010 at 8:34 am)Welsh cake Wrote:
tackattack Wrote:4-I have no idea what universalism believes, but the NIV and KJV Bible are actually very vague on what happens exactly after death.
As I thought, you haven't read your Bible. It gives a detailed account on what will happen after this world, the old heaven and current order have all but passed away.
I haven't read my Bible.. really come on.. I know it's quite filled with loads of imagery of judgement day, etc. However I said it's not specific on exactly what hapens when one person dies. Specifically will the soul go to a waiting area till judgement day, will it sleep and rest, are express trains to heaven and hell instintaneous to each life, then on judgements it will be a traffic jam for everyone else, when exactly are we born again, etc.? That was what I was referencing and not judgement day.
(June 25, 2010 at 8:34 am)Welsh cake Wrote:
tackattack Wrote:It's quite obvious you don't feel God's love. Just like with interpersonal relationships though, how can you possibly expect anyone to love you when you're spitting bile out of your mouth at all times.
I'm disappointed you resorted to this fallacious appeal to emotion when the Invisible Pink Unicorn loves you so very much Tack, yet you stubbornly refuse to even acknowledge her. Do you really want to make her holy pinkness' spirit sad? She loves you so much she'd rather end your miserable existence than see you carry on another moment living on this planet without her. I'm praying for you brother! A-horn.
This one I do apologize for. It's not typically in what I've seen of your posts to be "spitting bile" I took "what are you fasting" as an attack rather than a joke bcause I was in some real and serious pain. I took too much offence and shouldn't have resorted to anyhting like what I did, so please accept my apologies for that one, it sometimes gets tiring when you expect an attack at every post.
(June 25, 2010 at 11:50 am)Ace Wrote:
Can't be fucked with most of these debates but had to pop into this little part that I didn't like.
Quote:I do appreciate you're living in a state of denial of God
Why can't theists get it into their very think skulls that it's not denial. As an atheist I don't deny god's existance, because I really don't believe in his existance. Lack of belief isn't denial. Otherwise lack of belief in santa can be considered denial.
Anyway saying an atheist really does believe in god is no differant from an atheist saying a theist doesn't really believe in god.
So cut that shit out. Seriously.
(June 25, 2010 at 6:15 pm)Ace Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='76704' dateline='1277503421']
I've never said that atheism is a religion and do not see how that is even possible and if I've ever said that atheist are in denial I'm sorry (I do not believe I have said that).
I don't recall you saying such things but others on here have. I tend to react strongly to such ignorant talk.
You didn't say it Godschild I did. I said it regarding the quote from welsh where he said "I am living in a state of separation from God" If he had said "I dont believe in God therefore I can be neither , separate or in denial" That would have been a different subject. My assertion was specific to Welsh and not to atheists in general Ace, generalizations are not usually my thing. If he rephrases his statment I'd be glad to retract mine.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Human love is not mercurial tacky. If that were so then your lady is in for a rude shock. And so your children. You put far too much importance on this imaginary friend of yours. STOP take a breath and defrag the brain contents. You are imagining a high ideal that no creature in the universe can live up to and so you will be disappointed continually...... Is this a way to live??
All statements to the effect that you are 'feeding' an ideal nothing more...it is not real nor is it realistic nor does it flow with the way the universe works. Things change continuously....do try to keep up with the program will you??
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
No love between humans is mercurial. I can't see any instance for not loving my wife, aside from her absolutely changing everything I know about her in one foul swoop and being someone else. I'm quite aware that with my wife's mother's history if I ever cheated on her she'd probably divorce me and love me less at the least. You stated human love isn't mercural then followed with a sentence stating things change constantly it's the way the universe works.. I think I'm with the program.. are you?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(June 26, 2010 at 3:57 am)tackattack Wrote: No love between humans is mercurial.
I am sure your wife and children will be so pleased to hear that.
(June 26, 2010 at 3:57 am)tackattack Wrote: I can't see any instance for not loving my wife, aside from her absolutely changing everything I know about her in one foul swoop and being someone else.
So you are totally opposed to change....
(June 26, 2010 at 3:57 am)tackattack Wrote: I'm quite aware that with my wife's mother's history if I ever cheated on her she'd probably divorce me and love me less at the least.
And now you fear....
(June 26, 2010 at 3:57 am)tackattack Wrote: You stated human love isn't mercural then followed with a sentence stating things change constantly it's the way the universe works.. I think I'm with the program.. are you?
Oh yes more so than you my friend.......you fear the loss of the affection of a biped you are fond of. The fact that you both have mated and produced offspring as per the biological imperative is also another point of loss for you ....Yes the universe is constantly changing and everything in it ...why do you desperately NEED the "love" of an imagined 'sky daddy' to keep you stable?? Are you so inept that you are unable to stand alone in this universe and live?? Are you of such inadequate character that you can not come home at night and know that tomorrow "all this may be gone" "I will be alone" "but that's OK" Cos "I will be OK"
You do not have the intestinal fortitude to stand or fall on your own???
What the fuck are you teaching your children???
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
June 26, 2010 at 4:18 am (This post was last modified: June 26, 2010 at 4:23 am by tavarish.)
(June 26, 2010 at 3:46 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Human love is not mercurial tacky. If that were so then your lady is in for a rude shock. And so your children. You put far too much importance on this imaginary friend of yours. STOP take a breath and defrag the brain contents. You are imagining a high ideal that no creature in the universe can live up to and so you will be disappointed continually...... Is this a way to live??
All statements to the effect that you are 'feeding' an ideal nothing more...it is not real nor is it realistic nor does it flow with the way the universe works. Things change continuously....do try to keep up with the program will you??
Here is an atheist trying to convert a Christian.
Why?
I'd much rather argue and agree to disagree and have the knowledge that they are generally well rounded people and don't proselytize and condemn others for not having their mode of thinking than try to make them submit to some ideology that sounds good to me because it comports with my view of reality.
Preaching can go both ways.
Frankly, I don't care what tack believes, I just ask that he doesn't try to tell me that I should believe it, and I'll do the same. Arguments aside, things will go smoother with a live and let live attitude when people generally aren't harming or degrading each other.
(June 26, 2010 at 4:11 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Oh yes more so than you my friend.......you fear the loss of the affection of a biped you are fond of. The fact that you both have mated and produced offspring as per the biological imperative is also another point of loss for you ....Yes the universe is constantly changing and everything in it ...why do you desperately NEED the "love" of an imagined 'sky daddy' to keep you stable?? Are you so inept that you are unable to stand alone in this universe and live?? Are you of such inadequate character that you can not come home at night and know that tomorrow "all this may be gone" "I will be alone" "but that's OK" Cos "I will be OK"
You do not have the intestinal fortitude to stand or fall on your own???
What the fuck are you teaching your children???
Holy shit. It's this kind of sanctimonious bullshit that we really don't need. Cry me a fucking river - someone doesn't conform to your ideals. Let the guy live how he wants to live and teach his kids whatever the fuck he wants to teach his kids. That's his business, not yours.
If he presents arguments, add your 2 cents, but preaching like you have a monopoly on truth is seriously disingenuous and trying to degrade him with comments such as not having the intestinal fortitude to be on his own can be classified as nothing more than a rampant, unadulterated vaginal secretion. It's fucking meaningless and stupid.
(June 26, 2010 at 3:46 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Human love is not mercurial tacky. If that were so then your lady is in for a rude shock. And so your children. You put far too much importance on this imaginary friend of yours. STOP take a breath and defrag the brain contents. You are imagining a high ideal that no creature in the universe can live up to and so you will be disappointed continually...... Is this a way to live??
All statements to the effect that you are 'feeding' an ideal nothing more...it is not real nor is it realistic nor does it flow with the way the universe works. Things change continuously....do try to keep up with the program will you??
Here is an atheist trying to convert a Christian.
Why?
So you would rather not answer this persons question as to what YOU believe in tarvish??
(June 26, 2010 at 4:18 am)tavarish Wrote: I'd much rather argue and agree to disagree and have the knowledge that they are generally well rounded people and don't proselytize and condemn others for not having their mode of thinking than try to make them submit to some ideology that sounds good to me because it comports with my view of reality.
Oh don't mind me Tav...I've just had one of those weeks and I am not apologising to anyone for anything anymore. You really think I was proselytizing???
(June 26, 2010 at 4:18 am)tavarish Wrote: Preaching can go both ways.
So?? this is human nature is it not?? Still I am loathe to let some half backed xtian get all the statments in when I have a few opinions of my own. At the end of the day tav...all we are talking about are peoples opinions...there is no evidence on either side of the theistic / atheistic argument.
(June 26, 2010 at 4:18 am)tavarish Wrote: Frankly, I don't care what tack believes, I just ask that he doesn't try to tell me that I should believe it, and I'll do the same. Arguments aside, things will go smoother with a live and let live attitude when people generally aren't harming or degrading each other.
(June 26, 2010 at 4:11 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Oh yes more so than you my friend.......you fear the loss of the affection of a biped you are fond of. The fact that you both have mated and produced offspring as per the biological imperative is also another point of loss for you ....Yes the universe is constantly changing and everything in it ...why do you desperately NEED the "love" of an imagined 'sky daddy' to keep you stable?? Are you so inept that you are unable to stand alone in this universe and live?? Are you of such inadequate character that you can not come home at night and know that tomorrow "all this may be gone" "I will be alone" "but that's OK" Cos "I will be OK"
You do not have the intestinal fortitude to stand or fall on your own???
What the fuck are you teaching your children???
Holy shit. It's this kind of sanctimonious bullshit that we really don't need. Cry me a fucking river - someone doesn't conform to your ideals. Let the guy live how he wants to live and teach his kids whatever the fuck he wants to teach his kids. That's his business, not yours.
If he presents arguments, add your 2 cents, but preaching like you have a monopoly on truth is seriously disingenuous and trying to degrade him with comments such as not having the intestinal fortitude to be on his own can be classified as nothing more than a rampant, unadulterated vaginal secretion. It's fucking meaningless and stupid.
Just stop.
So sorry if my opinions offend you tav..... so I am to stop voicing my opinions because they offend you??
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(June 26, 2010 at 3:20 am)tackattack Wrote: My assertion was specific to Welsh and not to atheists in general Ace, generalizations are not usually my thing. If he rephrases his statment I'd be glad to retract mine.
Ah, I understand. You don't have to worry about rephrasing/retracting posts. In all fairness I retract my previous posts on the subject.
You can't really tell when one aims his/her posts at one person and not the group for which he/she is part of.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
