Objectifying women

[Scented Nectar]

TOO, no matter what the clothes or intentions regarding the casualness of sex being looked for, I think any touching should always wait for when it's clear the woman wants it. Even the seeker of the most casual "don't-even-know-his-name" sex doesn't want just anyone touching and groping her, only whoever it is she decides to have sex with that night.

Which is why acting like the clothing matters is pure victim blaming. Glad you finally came around. Now if only the rest of the pricks would.

I never was on the side of blaming the victim, not for clothing or anything else. Even if it were logical or fair somehow to do that, it would be logistically impossible. There are too many variables and unknowns needed before any determination that certain clothing increases risk. Without even a consistant correlation, assigning causation is impossible. And then, even if causation (in the form of slight risk increase) were to become apparent, it would be inhumane and unreasonable to expect women to uglify themselves. And even then, there would be a sliding scale of ugliness the borders of which would be unclear, so the only solution would be for all men and women to wear a burka to hide their genders altogether.

And why stop there? Since most rapes happen by men that the victim lives with, should one warn all women who choose to live in families that maybe they should have known better? That one must take massive priority over warning about clothing, since the very real repeatable statistics show it to be true. There are no such statistics on 'sexy' clothing correlating with rapes.

[Godhead]

In this mind -

You seem to have a weird, perpetual victim mentality. You tend to see everything as an issue of victim & aggressor. In your mind, one is either a victim, or an aggressor or on the side of the aggressor. You don't understand that it is perfectly possible and reasonable to give common sense advice to a victim, without being an aggressor or on the side of the aggressor. It's all very black and white to you, which is why you don't get that being a victim doesn't exempt you from being responsible for taking care and avoiding risks. You say that you have vounselled rape victims. I wonder whether or not you have ever advised any of them to try and avoid risk, or if you told them to go ahead and do anything, be anywhere at any time, and pay no mind to the risks. If it's the latter, then what you're doing is putting them in danger. I don't know how many times you've been told already that common sense applies to us all, including potential victims. If you don't want to be raped, then you have a personal responsibility to yourself, which is to take care, and not to blame the whole world when it all goes wrong for you. It's classic victim mentality, you are a professional victim.

[In This Mind]

babbling

Read these, as I see no reason to repeat them:

http://whatprivilege.com/the-entitlement...do-gooder/
http://whatprivilege.com/abused-kids-can...r-parents/
http://whatprivilege.com/non-survivor-pr...d-silence/

Until you have read them, do not respond to me again. You've already demonstrated that you aren't actually reading what I write, as your latest post demonstrates. So I'll let someone else explain it to you.

Because this is what you and the others are doing, right here:

"When they’re someone you know; someone very much like you. When you get that crumpled feeling in the gut that it’s only random chance it was them and not you, and your first instinct is to explain away why it happened to them (and could therefore never happen to you). "

And when it's pointed out to you, your response is to call the other person nuts and try to make them into a bad person.

Just like a rapist claims his victim was 'asking for it'. Same mentality.

And that is where the responsibility for rape lies. Not in what a woman wears, or whether she travels in herds, or whether she leaves her house at night. Those things don't 'increase her risk'. The above listed mentality is what increases her risk. That's what needs to change. That's what ultimately will lower rape.

Someday, perhaps, you'll grow up, and get it. But somehow, I doubt that day will be today. You'll just keep blaming me and stating I need professional help because I make you uncomfortable and point out how you are actively contributing to the high statistics of rape.

Because this is where your mindset leads, every time:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-06...detectives

Read that article, before you respond to me. Actually read it, don't just click the link and look at the headline. Read the article. That's where your mindset leads. Every time.

[Edwardo Piet]

I'm afraid, In This Mind, you don't seem to be able to understand the difference between blaming a victim and pointing out that it may be possible that a victim could have taken precautions. There is a difference between the meaning of "could" and "should", I don't see how you can't understand that.

Well, actually maybe I do partly understand because I'm guessing you're not noticing the difference because you are so emotionally charged IMO.

EvF

[Godhead]

EvF -

Everything you're saying is obvious. So I think she's either not being objective, or she's not being entirely sincere. I'm starting to suspect the latter, and not just based on her posts in this thread, or even this forum.

[Scented Nectar]

I advise all men that if you don't take precautions to dress in rags and to muck up your house and car so as they don't look so valuable, it's your own fault if someone you live with takes money from your wallet at night. You should have known better.

Unless anyone is proposing that all women hide their gender completely, by both genders wearing a shape hiding burka, it's a completely dumb expectation that any woman should mind her clothing for fear someone bad will realize she has a vagina.

I would like anyone continuing to state that certain clothing increases rape risk to prove it. Produce the same quality proof that we would all demand if a god believer made some claim like, "belief in god causes less rapes." Repeatable, non-anecdotal, etc. This is such a long standing meme (there you go Cecco, you weirdo!), the meme of sexy clothing/talk/mannerisms causing rape that surely there have been many studies by now to show this to be the case, if it really were.

Also, note that it is religions who have pretty much started the mentality of slut-shaming, where female sexual expression is seen as sinful. So, look at the source as well as the lack of evidence. If any correlation of an actual increase is ever found, I bet it will be due to a few lone religiously psychotic sex offenders who think they are picking out only sinful Eves who deserve it.

---

What would you guys do if a rape victim was told "You might have been at an increased risk of being raped because you didn't believe in god". Would you expect her to believe that without solid proof?

[tavarish]

The women in this thread, with exception of Saerules fail to understand that "safeguarding against" does not mean "wear a burlap sack" or "stay home", nor does it mean "get a man" or "it's your own fault if you don't".

Would I be blaming the victim of a car accident if I told them to put on a seatbelt?

I never said rape happens predominantly with scantily clad women, nor did I say wearing revealing clothes is an open invitation for harm. I said that wearing clothing may increase attention, both good and bad, and women who wear revealing clothing should be aware of this at the very least. That's it. Be fucking aware of your surroundings when you're the center of attention. My comment is geared towards the same thing we've been talking about for nearly 40 pages now - common sense.

Why the conversation turned to victim blaming, us v them mentality, and emotionally charged straw men is something I'll never quite understand.

[Eilonnwy]

I'm afraid, In This Mind, you don't seem to be able to understand the difference between blaming a victim and pointing out that it may be possible that a victim could have taken precautions. There is a difference between the meaning of "could" and "should", I don't see how you can't understand that.

Well, actually maybe I do partly understand because I'm guessing you're not noticing the difference because you are so emotionally charged IMO.

EvF

Yes, there is a difference between could and should. Could denotes an idea, should denotes advice. Here is a more detailed explanation. No one here is saying women can reduce chances of rape by walking home in a group in the sense of an "idea", it's meant in the sense of advice. Every statement I've read by the people hear explain it as a reduced risk option, yes? Then it's advice. Which means you are saying women should not walk home alone. You're not saying could, and if you are, you're using the word wrong. So when you suggest that a woman could have avoided rape by walking home with other people, you are really saying should. And when you say a woman should have done something, you are victim blaming.

I am a woman, I have walked home alone at as late as 2am from an area where rapes previously happened. I have done this too many times to count. I have never been raped or attacked. You know why? Because the rare instance of rape that occurs when a man grabs a woman off a street is random. A woman somewhere is going to be raped because they crossed paths with a rapist. You can say that all those times I walked home alone at 2am in a place previously stalked by a serial rapist as being risky, or I shouldn't have done it. But you know what this place was? It was a T station. The end of the line Ashmont T station, and the sad fact is that women have jobs and lack cars and have no better option than to utilize this T station. Every single woman who uses this T station was at risk. All those woman were attacked from 9 to 1am. I was lucky.

And here's the crux of the problem. None of you who argue "common sense" can see past your own privilege. Your common sense suggests woman should never wear sexy clothing, that every time she walks home alone she could be raped. This common sense is based on Just World theory. It's really hard for people to accept that something happened to them because it just did. There is human propensity to try to figure out what went wrong. What did she do? What made her the victim and not me? That sad fact is nothing. Bad things happen to good people, and often there is no sense of justice, so we pretend there is by assigning these little "common sense suggestions" that we believe reduces our risk of rape. They don't. The facts of rape do not correlate with any of what's been said before. Most woman who are raped are raped by someone they knew, even in their own home. The man off the street rape is rare and statistics show they are random in nature.

It sucks to feel helpless. It sucks even more to realize you're lucky. I am lucky. I know so many woman who have been victimized and I have not. I know people who are so bright and wonderful, and you would never think anything terrible happened to her, but if only you really knew.

I understand how appealing the common sense suggestions are. I really do. No one here wants a woman to be raped, no one wants to be raped. No one wants to feel like they have no control about what evil people choose to do to you. We like to think we can reduce our risk, but in these instances, it's just not true. And is In His Mind's article about Baltimore police illustrates why it's so dangerous to have these attitudes. Woman have been shamed into silence from police officers asking the very questions about suggestions you feel are sound advice. This is rape culture, it's a well documented fact, and both of us have tried to explain this to you all ad nauseum.

You have all lashed out at In His Mind, and granted, In His Min has lashed out at times in ways I don't agree with, but you all have attacked her for being a victim, and it's absolutely disgusting. You suggest she cannot have a clear opinion on this matter because she has been a victim. You all disgust me. You are victim blaming so much, and you cannot see past your own privilege to see it. You can do everything "right". You can take cabs home, you can wear modest clothing, and you still can be raped.

Being accused of victim blaming is uncomfortable. I'm sure you all really believe you're thinking logically and have the best interest of woman at heart, yet the statistics prove you wrong. They've been posted here all over the place.

I once sat on the train and saw an ad "Don't use your smart phone on the train." because there has been a high rate of phone thefts on public transit. But wait....don't we have our phones so we can use them conveniently call people on the train, browse the internet, or play games? Isn't the whole fucking point to use them? So with this message on the train, I take out my iPhone to change a song. I hate the one that's playing right now, and hey, it's an innocent change of song! Someone then steals it from me a few minutes later. Would you tell me, "You shouldn't have changed your song and flashed your iphone?" Or better yet, "You shouldn't have had an iphone. If you had a crappy nextel you would never had had your phone stolen?" So basically, if I don't want my shit stolen, I can't have nice thing. It's absurd. One of my friends was mugged at a T station, they tried to steal his phone. You know what kind of phone it was? It was the crappiest piece of shit you could ever imagine. He bought it for 15$ way back when. He was saved from some MBTA police that showed up.

The truth is that the people who decide to steal are the ones who commit the crime and have full blame. The same goes for rape. When you try to think of what "risks" they could have reduce, you are placing the onus on the victim that they should have done something, and feeding into victim blaming culture that results in rape cases going unreported, not prosecuted, or the guy getting completely let off.

Think about. A woman is walking home from work, they don't have a car, they can't afford it. They've walked from a T station so many times. It's a busy place at 9pm. Nothing has ever happened before, it's only a 10 minute walk. You're forced into a car, you're raped. You tell the police you were walking home along and someone had a knife to your back, they ask you, "Why didn't you flag down someone?" "Why didn't your scream?" "Why were you walking home alone?" You do not see how any of these questions would suggest it's her fault? Do you think any of these questions have any bearing on finding the man who raped her?

The common sense thing is that people have lives, they have the right to live it. They have a right to riches, and flashing pricey thing does make it partly their fault it got stolen. Women have bodies, and they have right to not have the bodies violated. Wearing flashy clothing or walking home at night does not make it partly their fault that someone took it upon themselves to violate her.

The only reason why I have never been raped is because no man or woman has chosen to violate me. I have not crossed paths with a rapist, I've not had a relationship with an abusive boyfriend, I have not gone to parties and gotten drunk with people who assume my incoherent state is a license to have sex with me. I'm lucky, and I do not take my luck for granted, I do not assume I can avoid every possible rape situation with "common sense".

That's the way it is, and I'm sorry so many of you refuse to see it.

[Eilonnwy]

The women in this thread, with exception of Saerules fail to understand that "safeguarding against" does not mean "wear a burlap sack" or "stay home", nor does it mean "get a man" or "it's your own fault if you don't".

If you really have to go there, then I have to point out that Saerule's gender is female, but not her sex. There's a difference.

Furthermore, if you really really want to go there, notice how women tend to be the victims and men tend to be the perpetrators.

Would I be blaming the victim of a car accident if I told them to put on a seatbelt?

Seatbelts don't cause or prevent car accidents. Your analogy is irrelevant.

I never said rape happens predominantly with scantily clad women, nor did I say wearing revealing clothes is an open invitation for harm. I said that wearing clothing may increase attention, both good and bad, and women who wear revealing clothing should be aware of this at the very least. That's it. Be fucking aware of your surroundings when you're the center of attention. My comment is geared towards the same thing we've been talking about for nearly 40 pages now - common sense.

Why the conversation turned to victim blaming, us v them mentality, and emotionally charged straw men is something I'll never quite understand.

Yeah, no. So woman who are not wearing scantily clad clothing should not be aware? Where are the statistics that show a woman's clothing has a strong correlation to rape victims?

Your common sense is flawed, I'm sorry you can't see it.

[In This Mind]

I'm afraid, In This Mind, you don't seem to be able to understand the difference between blaming a victim and pointing out that it may be possible that a victim could have taken precautions. There is a difference between the meaning of "could" and "should", I don't see how you can't understand that.

Well, actually maybe I do partly understand because I'm guessing you're not noticing the difference because you are so emotionally charged IMO.

EvF

I see you didn't read the articles either. Perhaps you should. Particularly the one in the very last link. Do read the entire thing.

Because as soon as you remark 'well, if only you'd done X, you wouldn't have been raped', you've blamed the victim. Every time you put the onus of avoiding rape on the victim, you contribute to the problem rather than fix the problem.

Eilonnwy also explains it to you. But, feel free to dismiss her as just another crazy bitch with a victim complex, just another dumb, irresponsible, foolish woman. It's pretty much what we've come to expect from those who cling to the status quo of rape culture.