Garden of Eden was a setup...

[Esquilax]

Lek did a nice job of presenting logic to you guys (Oh wait- that's the word we aren't supposed to use).

What part of "just assume god is right about everything even when he's not" is logical?

[robvalue]

I literally treat my worst enemies better than Y-man treats his beloved children.

I have a question which has been bugging me:

What would God have to do/command/allow before a Christian stood up and said, "Hey maybe God isn't all good, he has gone too far! I can't agree with this action!"

I would be very interested in what Christians would say to that question. When I consider all the things he has already done/allowed/commanded I can't think of any evil act that hasn't already been covered. So I suspect that answer from most Christians will be "Nothing. Whatever he does is good." Which is an indication that they have entirely abandoned any morals they hold and blindly obey a dictator.

How can you possibly know that his intentions are good? Because he tells you so? Because everyone around you tells you so? Because your parents told you it over and over while you were too young to properly think about it? While threatening you with eternal torture if you don't believe how much God loves you?

I mean, eternal torture. Is there anything more evil than that? I know not every Christian views hell this way, but many do.

I thought of a scenario where the devil kills God and replaces him. He picks up the bible God has written and goes, "Right! After the way he treated me, I'm gonna rewrite this to make him look more evil than me. Let's see... Oh. Did I already do this yesterday?"

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Haven't you atheist had any kids?

You tell them- Do NOT go in the street. That street is dangerous.
And still you watch them because you do not trust their judgment.

Actually, I haven't any children of my own, but I get the point you are trying to make, and the point fails utterly.

Yes, I would absolutely tell a child of mine, 'Don't go into the street, dear, it's very dangerous.' And yes, I would keep an eye on my child. But then your analogy falls apart.

God did nothing - absolutely nothing - to prevent Eve from eating the fruit and continued to do nothing when she offered Adam the fruit. If I saw my child about to wander into the street, I would make a mad dash to grab her before she got injured. If she picked up a table knife after I told her not to, I would take it from her. If I saw her climbing into a pen with a littered sow (I grew up on a farm), I would stop her. Christians are fond of make a parent analogy regarding God, and it just doesn't wash. Responsible parents not only warn their children about dangers and watch them, they take steps to protect their children. If your analogy worked, I'd let my child wander into a busy road - while I watched her do it - just for the satisfaction of seeing her killed or crippled so I could crow, 'See what happens when you disobey me?'

Stop using the 'God is a loving parent analogy'. He isn't. If God were a human parent, he'd be brought up on abuse charges.

Boru

[Tonus]

If Adam and Eve never ate the fruit, they would not only not understand the nature of sin and the test, but they wouldn't even have a concept of what sin could be. The only "lesson" that could be learned from the test is one of failure, conditional to them failing, and frankly, not only is that a lesson not worth learning, but it's also not worth the price that was paid for it.

It also means that the test would probably have been failed by everyone, eventually, since the only way to understand what it meant was to fail.

[Esquilax]

Actually, I haven't any children of my own, but I get the point you are trying to make, and the point fails utterly.

Yes, I would absolutely tell a child of mine, 'Don't go into the street, dear, it's very dangerous.' And yes, I would keep an eye on my child. But then your analogy falls apart.

God did nothing - absolutely nothing - to prevent Eve from eating the fruit and continued to do nothing when she offered Adam the fruit. If I saw my child about to wander into the street, I would make a mad dash to grab her before she got injured. If she picked up a table knife after I told her not to, I would take it from her. If I saw her climbing into a pen with a littered sow (I grew up on a farm), I would stop her. Christians are fond of make a parent analogy regarding God, and it just doesn't wash. Responsible parents not only warn their children about dangers and watch them, they take steps to protect their children. If your analogy worked, I'd let my child wander into a busy road - while I watched her do it - just for the satisfaction of seeing her killed or crippled so I could crow, 'See what happens when you disobey me?'

Stop using the 'God is a loving parent analogy'. He isn't. If God were a human parent, he'd be brought up on abuse charges.

Boru

The other important thing to remember is that the fruit wasn't actually dangerous at all. In fact, it gave Adam and Eve the capacity to recognize good and evil. It improved them. What was dangerous was daring to disobey god on even the most random, innocuous point, that they couldn't have known was wrong before they disobeyed.

So, as usual, the christian's analogy is missing some important details. A more comprehensive picture would be to imagine god as a father warning his children against the dangerous process of learning, lying to them about how trying to learn anything will kill them, and so on. And then, when he finds out that they've learned even the most basic of things, he cripples them and throws them out of his house.

Oh, and just saying; while they lived under his roof these two children were confined to a single space within it, forbidden to go outside of that, and also forbidden to wear clothes.

The entire thing reads like the sexual predator leader of a cult trying to keep his kids docile and pliant.

[abaris]

The entire thing reads like the sexual predator leader of a cult trying to keep his kids docile and pliant.

Orwell and Fahrenheit 451 come to mind.

[robvalue]

I think I should mention again that God got outwitted by a snake.

[abaris]

I think I should mention again that God got outwitted by a snake.

Probably his pet doing his bidding. Voldemort had one too.

[IATIA]

Orwell and Fahrenheit 451 come to mind.

They Live

As a side note, this is where "I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubblegum." came from.

[abaris]

Orwell and Fahrenheit 451 come to mind.

They Live

Yup, seen that one when it hit the cinemas. But I wouldn't have thought of that.