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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:02 am
(January 2, 2015 at 11:10 pm)Heywood Wrote: (January 2, 2015 at 6:48 pm)Jenny A Wrote: But evolutionarily designed things do have left overs no designer would even have considered. Your body is covered in little tiny tiny hairs that serve little purpose today. Certainly, they don't keep you warm. And they probably aren't decorative. Your spine is a modification of a design meant for walking on all fours, and as a design it frankly sucks. It would have been better to start from scratch just as replacing a horse with an engine is better than trying to make a mechanized horse to do the job. Whales and dolphins swim by pumping up and down, because that's home mammal spines work. But fish move much more efficiently. Why? Evolution working on what is, not designing from scratch. The hallmarks of adaptation and design are quite different.
You are conflating the products of an evolutionary system with the system itself. Do you remember the video I posted in another thread where virtual beings were evolved in a computer simulated world? The features of those beings were not directly designed...but the system which evolved them certainly was.
Can you point to an evolutionary system which you know for certain doesn't require an intellect to come into existence or to be a substantial part of it? I cannot. It seems every evolutionary system....including memetic ones, required either intellect to design them or intellect to be the selective mechanism in them. Why then should I make a special case for the evolutionary system which produced me and believe that somehow it is different and didn't need an intellect to design it or be substantially involved in the selection mechanism?
There is no reason to believe that biological evolution requires an intellect.
And there is most certainly no evidence that it does.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:05 am
(January 3, 2015 at 12:00 am)Rhythm Wrote: -The- evolutionary system, or even the example of your "evolved" simulated beings.
Here is the video of the example I reference in my response the Jenny.
The evolutionary system presented in that video would certainly not exist if intellect did not exist.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:13 am
(This post was last modified: January 3, 2015 at 12:15 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Seen it, sure could. Logic machines don't work: because an intelligent agent exists. The reason that they work is a fair deal more mundane than all that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:17 am
(This post was last modified: January 3, 2015 at 12:18 am by Heywood.)
(January 3, 2015 at 12:02 am)Chas Wrote: There is no reason to believe that biological evolution requires an intellect.
And there is most certainly no evidence that it does.
The reason I believe biological evolution requires an intellect is because I observe that every other evolutionary system requires intellect.
The reason I believe mysterious excess gravity which exist in galaxies is caused by some sort of dark matter we have never observed is because in every other instance when we observe gravity it turns out to be a consequence of the existence of some sort of matter/energy.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:20 am
(This post was last modified: January 3, 2015 at 12:20 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You don't observe that at all, and you've never made any effort to observe any evolutionary system to begin with. We could at least keep it honest, Heywood.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:22 am
(January 3, 2015 at 12:13 am)Rhythm Wrote: Seen it, sure could. Logic machines don't work: because an intelligent agent exists. The reason that they work is a fair deal more mundane than all that.
Can you show me a logic machine that came into existence without an intellect?
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:22 am
(This post was last modified: January 3, 2015 at 12:24 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Yup. As many as you'd like. Down this road lay only tears. Stick to djinn and leave machines to me, eh?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:23 am
(January 3, 2015 at 12:20 am)Rhythm Wrote: You don't observe that at all, and you've never made any effort to observe any evolutionary system to begin with. We could at least keep it honest, Heywood.
I've looked at lots of evolutionary systems including memetic ones. Stop spreading lies.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:24 am
(January 3, 2015 at 12:17 am)Heywood Wrote: The reason I believe biological evolution requires an intellect is because I observe that every other evolutionary system requires intellect. Then you don't understand evolution. Evolution doesn't even require life-- it only requires complex interactions over time, with some mechanism for persisting change.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 3, 2015 at 12:24 am
(This post was last modified: January 3, 2015 at 12:26 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You're going to confuse him Benny.
Quote:I've looked at lots of evolutionary systems including memetic ones. Stop spreading lies.
No...you haven't, unless by "looked at" you mean "pointed your eyes in the general direction of". 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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