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(January 14, 2015 at 1:20 am)schizo pantheist Wrote: The best lab is the human experience.
There's your problem right there. Do a little research on neurology, our perceptions and the fallibility of the human brain. You seek truth from personal experience, but the truth is that our personal experiences are just flawed reflections of reality at their very best. Study after study shows that our brains are very poor at actually determining and understanding what is going on around us.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
(January 14, 2015 at 1:20 am)schizo pantheist Wrote: I am new to the forum and decided to challenge the wisdom of the most educated and sincere atheist, one who would bet their life on it, as many religious people do.
That's a bet we all lose regardless. Human beings die - no matter where they throw their chips, but I'll bite.
Quote:I am a pantheist, which mean everything is deity. The keyboard is deity, the speck of dust on the screen is deity. I am deity, and so are you, same one. Monotheistic in a way, but includes all forms of deity following what science terms the subconscious collective. Shared mind, so to speak.
So, the god of "words and stuff", got it?
Quote:I am schizophrenic, which will stop many right here due to stigma, but keep in mind, although termed the “mad scientist” disease it doesn’t mean we don’t get it right. You know, Einstein had bi polar manic symptoms, including out of this world ideas, and many worked. John Nash won the Nobel Prize and had many unseen friends.
Schizophrenic? Meh, I guess that just means I'll have the pleasure of arguing with all of the voices in your head....none of which, mind you, are likely to be Einstein or Nash. Carry on.
Quote:My inner experiences are not unique, but I have studied anthropology, science, history, to the point that I have found most religions were started by people like me, with other worldly senses. Prophets, wizards, shamans, medicine people, witch doctors, trance mediums, etc. All of us have multidimensional senses. I see into many realms, personally. According to statistics, 1% of people are full on schizophrenic, whilst 15% or so see faces in other realms super imposed on walls in trance or when they close their eyes, or occasionally hear inner voices. It’s super common. Emotional “psychoses” is even more common. Manic religious awakening experiences are documented all over.
You don't have other-worldly senses (and neither do/did they). You have a chronic, severe, and disabling brain disorder. Whether or not the ubiquitous "they" were toiling under the same weight is, frankly, beyond either of us to determine.
Quote:So, my argument has many angles. First, this has nothing to do with religion. I have inner spirit guides, which basically teach a form of agnosticism. You never really know, in other words, what reality really is, but you can get a lot of truth. A true form of spiritual science, or real science, that includes more dimensional possibilities than 3d. More in line with physics, actually.
Ah, but how many of those angles are right angles, Mr. Nash? I jest. You don't have inner spirit guides, again, your mind is malfunctioning. Similarly, what's going to follow is unlikely to be truth, but even a broken clock is right twice a day..... so I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
Quote:I fully support and believe in evolution, using it against me is a waste of time. I am in the spirit realm all the time, and basically “over here” it is survival of the fittest as well. Spirit realm is like the dream or thought realm. Only the best ideas survive. The others go extinct, never happen. Thoughts are beings, from what I have learned. God = mind. One mind. Thoughts being created and destroyed. They are alive, like people. We are all thoughts in the same multilayered dream we like to call reality. Thoughts that go extinct in the mind of deity provide energy, like food, to fuel thoughts that need to be the next thing, filling the gap of necessity, like the market supply and demand.
Your "spirit realm isn't "like a dream", it -is- a dream, or the mechanical equivalent thereof. Need I continue?
Quote:Don’t know what death is yet though, not knowing it. Damn spirit realm never tells really what it is. It remains a mystery. Perhaps even after you die. I have no idea what happens before or after death. My philosophy is to focus on the practical here and now. However here and now for me is in many realms not included in many other perceivable realities by earthlings.
[hide]
Death is the cessation of life. You're welcome.
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Quote:Animals, on the other hand, may have multidimensional senses like my schizo antenna. Or insects. Premonitions have often been recorded such as animals knowing earthquakes before hand due to bizarre behavior. Who knows, we are only able to record a tiny amount of reality with our primitive few hundred years old scientific technological instruments. We really don’t know what is out there.
Neither you, nor Einstein, nor Nash, nor wizards, nor all the creepy crawly bugs on this entire globe have "multidimensional senses" in the manner you seem to be intent upon using that term. You aren't receiving any dispatches from the future, and neither is an ant.
Quote:The main meat of my position is that there is a ton of science out there that supports theism, especially non dual pantheism such as I use to define myself. It is not found in the hard sciences much, with mathematics and weights and measures, however it can be found over and over again in psychology and philosophy.
As far as I'm aware there isn't an ounce of science (not even in your two favorites) that supports anything even on the periphery of theism, you haven't presented any here, and so you have no point. Feel free to bring any of this science to my attention, if you think you've missed anything.
Quote: Particularly, I find atheism an unscientific philosophy, if it does not include the science of countless documented mystical experiences and spiritual emergencies that have happened for millions of years and have formulated the worlds most poetic religious renditions of the divine, from cave art up until modern cannon. Fairy tales included. Fairies are the ancient religion of my ancestors, and to be honest with you, I 100% believe they exist in a multidimensional realm. Ancestral deities is what they are. Their stories are meant to teach wisdom, not literalism.
I doubt that anyone disputes the existence of fairy stories. It's the fairies themselves which are thin on the ground. You are not descended from fairies, no one is, there is no such thing.
Quote: The Bible is similar to an excellent fairy tale. I see all religious texts this way. Don’t really believe them, but if you don’t believe and apply the wisdom they teach you are a fool and will suffer needlessly for your “evil”. Basically, along the evolutionary lines, good = smart and evil = dumb. Survival of the most intelligent, whether that be life form or other entity, animal, plant, anything that survives has inherent wisdom. It is wise enough, or the best and most current idea of the divine, to survive the current conditions and continues to adapt to change, like a mind changes.
The excellence of the bible -as a fairy tale- is a matter of opinion. I think it's hit or miss, personally. As crib notes for life, a users manual, it's garbage. I do not employ it;s advice or "wisdom", and this hasn't seemed to cause any needless suffering in my life. I'm skeptical that you have any authority in the matter of whats smart or dumb, good or evil.
Quote:So, I find this basic logical argument applies to atheists: the burden of proof is upon you to show your philosophy has merit. How, with all of the evidence from subjective experiencers, and access to your own mystical experiences if you simply try them, to scientifically test via observation, are you able to say for certainty that atheism is correct?
Atheism isn't a philosophy, full stop.
Quote:I find it sincerely close minded. Dull. Not open to the mysterious possibilities, and continually pushing similar arguments such as “prove it in a lab”. The best lab is the human experience. I’m sorry atheist, but we simply don’t have the technology to rule out the human spirit, the millions of years of observers and philosophers on it separated by geography yet similar in their thought patterns, the uniform collective archetypes that not only existed in history as deities but are equally accessible now in mystical states of transcendence. Modern is not less mystical than ancient. Modern mystic here to tell you about it!
Well, I'm sorry that atheism isn't sufficiently exciting to you. I'm not sure why you think that's a problem.
Welcome aboard, btw.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(January 14, 2015 at 1:20 am)schizo pantheist Wrote: I am a pantheist, which mean everything is deity. The keyboard is deity, the speck of dust on the screen is deity. I am deity, and so are you, same one. Monotheistic in a way, but includes all forms of deity following what science terms the subconscious collective. Shared mind, so to speak.
The main meat of my position is that there is a ton of science out there that supports theism, especially non dual pantheism such as I use to define myself. It is not found in the hard sciences much, with mathematics and weights and measures, however it can be found over and over again in psychology and philosophy. Particularly, I find atheism an unscientific philosophy, if it does not include the science of countless documented mystical experiences and spiritual emergencies that have happened for millions of years and have formulated the worlds most poetic religious renditions of the divine, from cave art up until modern cannon. Fairy tales included. Fairies are the ancient religion of my ancestors, and to be honest with you, I 100% believe they exist in a multidimensional realm. Ancestral deities is what they are. Their stories are meant to teach wisdom, not literalism. The Bible is similar to an excellent fairy tale. I see all religious texts this way. Don’t really believe them, but if you don’t believe and apply the wisdom they teach you are a fool and will suffer needlessly for your “evil”. Basically, along the evolutionary lines, good = smart and evil = dumb. Survival of the most intelligent, whether that be life form or other entity, animal, plant, anything that survives has inherent wisdom. It is wise enough, or the best and most current idea of the divine, to survive the current conditions and continues to adapt to change, like a mind changes.
So, I find this basic logical argument applies to atheists: the burden of proof is upon you to show your philosophy has merit. How, with all of the evidence from subjective experiencers, and access to your own mystical experiences if you simply try them, to scientifically test via observation, are you able to say for certainty that atheism is correct? I find it sincerely close minded. Dull. Not open to the mysterious possibilities, and continually pushing similar arguments such as “prove it in a lab”. The best lab is the human experience. I’m sorry atheist, but we simply don’t have the technology to rule out the human spirit, the millions of years of observers and philosophers on it separated by geography yet similar in their thought patterns, the uniform collective archetypes that not only existed in history as deities but are equally accessible now in mystical states of transcendence. Modern is not less mystical than ancient. Modern mystic here to tell you about it!
Your second paragraph is also a bit abstruse. You say "there is a ton of science out there that supports theism" and then you go on about philosophies and spirituality. An atheist to me is someone who rejects the theistic claims for a supernatural god that defies the laws of physics. Social and physical sciences cannot prove that a supernatural god, as in an anthropomorphic deity with magical powers that sits up in the clouds, exists. I think you're misusing the term, "theism." It's defined as "the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism )." Some religions don't believe God is a supernatural deity that lives in material reality. Instead, they believe in a philosophical god, which atheists (depending on which one you speak to) don't necessarily disagree with.
Mr. Schubert, goodness gracious it's been awhile. Sup amigo.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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