Atheist vs Pantheist

[Michael Schubert]

Mr. Schubert, goodness gracious it's been awhile. Sup amigo.

Hey, bro! Thanks for the greeting! Yeah, it's been a while. I've just been busy with grad school, family, career plans, and other stuff.

[schizo pantheist]

The main meat of my position is that there is a ton of science out there that supports theism

Say What! hock: Pretend I am from Missouri. Show me!

I know somebody in Missouri! One of the wisest most intelligent beings I know! In that case you would have no problem studying up!

I would recommend, if not already familiar, to become aware of the basic logical fallacies. Just search that term and start reading. This is basic philosophy stuff, you don't have to have a degree to know how to think these days with logic on the internet. This goes for all who wish to debate me on any topic. I will point out yours and you have logical permission to point out mine. This means no jesting, which is a waste of life force energy, meaning, your posts have to not be not poking fun as if "ha ha, I know already, you're dumb, you brainwashed theist etc etc". This is a common logical trick (it obscures logic and derails from the topic). It will receive no response.

The next thing, once a basic idea of philosophy is acknowledged, is to critically study the inner human experience. The human sciences, in other words. Anthropology, for a start, but with a focus on human perception of reality. It is human perception that has formed the various ideas of theology so this is a good focus. Along this same line of study, is psychology. I mean psyche in the Greek sense, meaning soul. The study of the soul. Not the study of math and chemistry, how this brain chemical synergies with that and lo and behold this somehow explains the vast awareness of human cognition. My opinion is this is a dead end for the most part. Acknowledged it is in the balance, but that is exactly where it needs to stay, balanced. Too many atheists take this end of science, the hard math, lab work, etc, overboard, as if it is all there is, and deny the other branches of science.

Stanislov Grof, a world renown psychologist whom I would recommend reading, (though some of his ideas to me seem old school, he is a pioneer in this science), says the only reason mainstream science as a whole rejects any notion of spirit, is because they haven't studied this area, they turn a blind eye to it because it interferes with their trajectory in life, their bias. Basically, the science of planet earth has not evolved enough to talk to all branches of itself successfully. Too many human emotions get involved with the scientists.

Things are changing though, with other pioneers in critical analysis of the experience of existing such as Carl Jung and his theories. He was quite psychic and looked at it through a scientific lense, and has a good way of putting it into comprehensible thought forms. His method of psychology, including the collective unconscious and the archetypal deities that reside there, is gaining more popularity as more ignorance and stigma against anybody who has a spiritual experience subsides. There is a blend of science and spirit emerging in our modern era, but the scientists are still "smarting" from the wound theism caused general intelligence, which I would call the sorcery and black magic of totalitarian churches that seek to dominate all areas of life especially the crotch, basically the foundation of any society, what a family is and how it should be done, etc. Raise them right! Make sure they are believers or else! This damages many psyche's so they turn the other way and use the logical fallacy of non sequitur. This is wrong (well, duh!) which means a supreme being does not exist. The two do not follow when a macro version of reality is taken into consideration. Look at the big picture, all over the world, all throughout history.

So you see, you ask, what science is there, and the answer takes work on your end. I am not going to give you your "understanding human experience" degree. I am not the professor here per se. If I am, I don't lecture much and there is a lot of homework.

Science has as different definition in the eastern philosophies. For example, the practice of yoga is considered a science by many. It is not a hard test tube style science that western academia likes, but that doesn't make it any less wise at it's ability to generate a true perception of truth via experience, observation. I am not hindu so can't speak with authority on it but it is the idea, there are many similar spiritual practices out there that have the invitation of "try and see for yourself".

By denying inner experiences altogether as invalid, many western science minded individuals rule out the vast pile of documented subjective experiences found, as I said, in the study of human perception of reality, in history, anthropology, and notably the religious texts of the world, their angle of looking at it. Although that is as science, it is not good enough for them likely because it is too complicated. The complicated nature of it makes it difficult to have an accurate macro view, which is what is required. It may take many generations of study to really prove things, and a scientist who wants the answer quickly with an experiment will be disappointed.

I find the Bible a source of great wisdom, and it is quite popular, so I'll quote what I believe to be universal wisdom attributed to whoever Jesus was. Luke 17:20-21

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Looking within to see Reality, Truth, or the “kingdom of God”, is the scientific method that has been recommended not only by this religion Christianity, but by so many shamans and meditating religions the world over, that would’t it be a logical fallacy to say there is nothing to it? It is not logical at all! Therefore, what are the inner experiences of others, how can this be looked at scientifically. No objective experiments other than cross analysis of inner experiences. Unless you can think of one. This is basically the study I am referring to here. Don’t look “out there” for for proof, meaning your test tube and your scale, look inward and experiment with the wisdom of the ancients. Don’t say the ancients are idiots, basically. How ignorant and immature is that! Look at your own and look at others inner experience to get the truth. Be detached from all of them, especially your own experience, until conclusions are made. This includes the idea of no. Atheism means no. Therefore it is not really detached. It rejects yes. No jumping to the wrong conclusions in other words.

Spiritual science, or an honest science that does not 3d everything, such as ancient magical alchemy, (Jung wrote a lot about it) show that the inner world can become the outer world. Basically, the scientific test is the observation of inner wisdom and how it manifests on the outside world. For example, Jung coined the term synchronicity, which he offered the example of talking about or thinking about something and then just by chance something similar “out there” happens. Premonitions, psychic clairvoyance, meeting entities and testing their claims, these are all ways to balance the inner and outer worlds to gain a true perception of reality. For example, if a spirit (aka hallucination in secular textbooks) tells you the future and it happens, well that is something testable. This is the kind of test that the ancients were familiar with, the inner laboratory, reflecting the outer lab and vice versa.

Paul Stamets, world renown mushroom expert, shared an experience in his earlier years when he used hallucinogenic magic mushrooms and had visions that showed the future. He “hallucinated it all” and then it happened a month later. Things like this. This is science too you know. Kinda like me but without the mushrooms, likely he was looking into other realms, not “hallucinating”. Why rule out the experiences of shamans which they consider more real than this world, and call them some kind of psychoses? That’s the western academic mind for you though.

Be humble enough to not be deceived by the “I don’t understand therefore you must be stupid” demon. Which, archetypally speaking is ignorance, it is prejudice, it is ruling something out with no real knowledge as to what it is or even means. Kind of the logical fallacy of straw man. Make something up that has nothing to do with reality at all, build a straw man (Richard Dawkins is God of all straw man arguments in my opinion) and then proceed to use your “logic” to tear it down and prove it is nothing.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's an awfully long post, especially for not having any science in it. You could have just said "I don't have any to show, I just like to claim that I do".

-Trust me, we would have understood. We get that alot 'round here.

[Faith No More]

Carl Jung was a "pioneer in the criticial analysis of the experience of existence?"

That must be a new ephamism for "just makes shit up."

[schizo pantheist]

My inner experiences are not unique, but I have studied anthropology, science, history, to the point that I have found most religions were started by people like me, with other worldly senses.

If most religions are started by people who have mental problems, wouldn't that mean all of them should be suspect of being flatly wrong?

Your fallacy here includes attaching a stigma, perhaps with the intent on jesting, which as already spoken in another post, is pointless in debate. Be civilized. No condescension. The first offense is perhaps tolerated but once educated, I will not respond to them. Hopefully I don’t have to repeat this point too much on this forum. Cursing, or attacking via using english terms that are derogatory, yet have no evidence as to their description, is a trick of sophistry, so, just pointing it out.

Mental “problems”. I don’t consider my gift problematic, however the awakening process has it’s initiatory roller coaster of lack of control when first breaking into other dimensional realms psychically, because the darkness has to be faced. It is literally the archetypal hero’s journey to go schizo. It isn’t bad. In fact, having demons, or facing possession and seeing dead people everywhere can be quite frightening, but when it is learned that they actually feed off of paranoia, one can simply master their fears and not attract the “evil” scary ones. Just your own fears bounced back to you really, that’s all the spirits do, until the fear is mastered.

So, this process of fear mastery can go a couple of directions, sometimes people loose complete control of their existence in this world and outsiders usually drug them up and call them crazy. This doesn’t mean their inner journeys are not valuable, or real in other reams even. Many people are simply antennas to the spirt world. Picking up all kinds of channels. I sure am. I call it the inner theater.

Other people can master this trance state, or “beat the devil” as Jesus did in trance for 40 days, (it told him to jump off a high building and he said no, among other psychotic things). You could consider Jesus schizo, in fact, many schizo’s think they are Jesus, or messianic. This is due to a unity with Jesus experience where one cannot tell the difference. I had one personally. It’s common. Other people raised in another environment, such as India, may have other deities unify with them. Or ancestral merging with deity is common too. Fairies, elves, gnomes, these beings are not from this world but can merge and interact with it. I pick them up on my antennae all the time. Channel…..which one was it again? So many channels. Cultural channels typically merge with people in highly altered states. They get “possessed” by deities from their ancestry. Been there done that. Sometimes they can be quite demonic and scary.

Getting through these channels and managing reception takes experience, but once balanced, open channeling occurs and revelations, prophecies, telepathy, knowledge that is impossible to get otherwise, is made known. In the past many of these things were written down and are known by many cultures as scriptures. Holy writ. Stories of people “seeing things other people don’t see” (hallucinations, according to the secular semantic) and “hearing things other’s don’t” etc schizo symptoms. What made holy writ holy was it’s practical application of it’s no brainer wisdom and also it’s record of miracles and legends that keep the magic alive and understanding of spirit from generation to generation. The ancients found it very important to pass on their beliefs about reality, so it’s worth taking a look.

However, one is foolish to underestimate the potential of the human brain. William James in a way compares the physical apparatus of the human brain to an antenna, which when stimulated or altered, can pick up information in other non earthly realms of existence. A scientific molecular look at the connection of matter and spirit. The way I see it is all is one anyway, it is all energy. No difference here. My brain is tuned differently than yours. I get channel 49 while you get 33. Oh well. Rather than the “I don’ like yer kind” mentality and “get to the back of the bus” one can detach their condescension and look objectively at people that view the world differently.

So, my argument has many angles. First, this has nothing to do with religion. I have inner spirit guides, which basically teach a form of agnosticism. You never really know, in other words, what reality really is, but you can get a lot of truth. A true form of spiritual science, or real science, that includes more dimensional possibilities than 3d. More in line with physics, actually.

Your not making any sense here.

Don’t assert that I don’t make any sense when I do. The science by definition is continually agnostic, pushing the boundary of what it thinks it knows. People move ahead in science when they prove it wrong. Real science takes every branch into consideration, including human studies. Physics, big bang stuff, etc lines up with may ancient mystical teachings about the beginning and end of existence. Multidimensional possibilities are now being theorized by top physicists but currently they can’t all agree of their math. The double slit experiment is physics enigma that is common inner revelation to mystics. Reality is based on perception. If the tree falls in the forest and nobody is there, perhaps there is no sound, because nobody can hear it kind of thing. It shows inherent intelligence behind our universe. Strangely, it may be our own, because our own perception shapes it in the experiment.

I fully support and believe in evolution, using it against me is a waste of time. I am in the spirit realm all the time, and basically “over here” it is survival of the fittest as well. Spirit realm is like the dream or thought realm. Only the best ideas survive. The others go extinct, never happen. Thoughts are beings, from what I have learned. God = mind. One mind. Thoughts being created and destroyed. They are alive, like people. We are all thoughts in the same multilayered dream we like to call reality. Thoughts that go extinct in the mind of deity provide energy, like food, to fuel thoughts that need to be the next thing, filling the gap of necessity, like the market supply and demand.

Can your spirit float into another room and see what is going on in there? If you can, then please do a simple experiment for me. Have a friend go into another room and write a number on a piece of paper. Your spirit will then go into that room and read what that number is. Then confirm with your friend if you got the number right or not. Do this at least 10 times and post the results here.

What you are mentioning here is magic. Magic is not to be witnessed or made known to the public. That is the basics, and this truth can also help with understanding that spirit in general likes to hide. The spirit realm is not only difficult to explain to mortals, but it is forbidden. It “breaks the rules” when miracles such as you are describing occur and doesn’t come without a price. It has an evil to it, mixed with good but don’t do it ever. I don’t do magic at all. It does occur though, like a scientific anomaly. It’s like a phenomena of nature that everything lines up in the universe and makes it happen. Really nothing magical at all, just nature doing it’s thing energetically speaking. Magic is when it just shouldn’t happen, it defies everything you know as real, yet it does. So, no, I won’t.

I can teach some basic pointers on how to witness it better though, kind of “it worked for me” things. Meditation techniques that are tested via inside observation. A good one is while on a road trip, as a passenger, particularly a long “boring, quiet” one, go into a trance. Zone out, no conversation, catatonic. Basically a meditative state. Then, practice this simple eyes open eyes closed exercise. Driving through a vast open area, such as farmland, get the feel with eyes closed of the energy, and point your inner eye, aka your attention or awareness, around locationally, search and feel around a bit for different energies. It may not be noticeable at first, but with a few attempts or hours in the car and practice, you can notice a difference between distant objects, such as hills, mountains, and if they are close, such as if you are driving thorough open field and then pass by a close hill with eyes closed and “see it” with the inner eye before you open your physical eyes, so you can tell where it is. Kind of Luke Skywalker kind of stuff, it actually works. Then, move to other objects, like large semi’s passing by. See them with your 6th sense which is kind of all the senses combined including emotions (very important to see or read emotional energy). You can sense basically what the Chinese call qi. Yin and yang energy. Up and down, far and near, open and closed, etc. You sense all of these polarities with your inner sight. Open and close your eyes over and over one experiment after another for hours. Then, with more advanced practice you can tap into the resonance, some call it arua, of others, emotional energy, and if you get really good at it you kinda become them and get the inner theater to show telepathically what is going on inside. We all share the same mind ultimately. That’s how you scientifically test it out, but again, science from the eastern semantic, not western.

Animals, on the other hand, may have multidimensional senses like my schizo antenna. Or insects. Premonitions have often been recorded such as animals knowing earthquakes before hand due to bizarre behavior.

The animals are probably hearing the small earthquake vibrations while we wait for the big vibrations to hit us. Hence they know an earthquake is coming before us. No premonitions required.

I appreciate good skepticism, but don’t think it’s an open and shut case. Considering people have experiences of a similar nature, it follows logically that animals do, and the mystical teaching that all is connected, every realm basically, would mean it ripples there too before here, or after. Either way, butterfly effect, everything ripples. Mystics and physicists talk about a dimension transcending time space itself, so it could be that time isn’t as static as it seems with our regular experience, but has layers into other realms.

The skeptical mind like you represented certainly has it’s place in the balance, however if it is not balanced with the creative side, open to possibilities, then new discoveries cannot be made because they will not even be fathomed. The point is, we really don’t know, but it doesn’t deserve write off, cut funding, don’t take it seriously, it’s not real science bs. Turning a blind eye to commonly reported phenomena and interpretation is foolish you know.

The main meat of my position is that there is a ton of science out there that supports theism, especially non dual pantheism such as I use to define myself.

You are mistaken.

I am not mistaken.

How’s that? Does that contribute to the discussion in any way?

It is not found in the hard sciences much, with mathematics and weights and measures, however it can be found over and over again in psychology and philosophy. Particularly, I find atheism an unscientific philosophy, if it does not include the science of countless documented mystical experiences and spiritual emergencies that have happened for millions of years and have formulated the worlds most poetic religious renditions of the divine, from cave art up until modern cannon.

First off, atheism is a philosophy. It is a position to the belief in God question. Second, testinomials are not scientific evidence.

Great, you see it as a philosophy! I am a philosopher, which the entire point is to disagree. My philosophy differs from yours. But I gotta argue it anyway to honor evolution of thought. If I am proven wrong, I am detached, it will only help strengthen my next position. I am open to change. However, I have to be sincere as to not waste my time. An insincere life is a waste. ]

So, philosophically, testimonials could be looked at as scientific evidence, if you don’t have the philosophy that automatically rejects them out of hand . Such a philosophy is lacking in logical balance, which would require that all be looked at by the scientist. If such testimonials were congruent, as had been discovered and written extensively about by Jung and others, then theories as to why can be developed, such as archetypes. That one works for me, It is science and spirit mixed.

Fairy tales included. Fairies are the ancient religion of my ancestors, and to be honest with you, I 100% believe they exist in a multidimensional realm. Ancestral deities is what they are. Their stories are meant to teach wisdom, not literalism. The Bible is similar to an excellent fairy tale. I see all religious texts this way.

At least you got one thing right, religious texts are fairy tails. Lets just end on a happy note.

Semantics. Fairies are real my friend! But yet, mostly, they live in your head. What makes them magical is the live in other people’s heads too, and can play with people like chess, setting up their lives by getting in their heads unbeknownst and steering them subconsciously behind the scenes. Casting spells. They are deities, you know, just like Jesus or Buddha. Spiritual Confucius is a good way to interpret their poetry. Simply wise sayings, their spin on it is entertaining, and if you notice the wisdom is directed in stories that the younger generation likes, kind of like “raise them in the word” type stuff if you were to compare it to Christianity. If you learn the morals of the fairy tales you will actually be quite wise. Same goes for all stories deities tell, and boy do they tell stories! Many people left Jesus when he said his disciples have to eat his flesh and drink his blood, but goodness, people, he wasn’t speaking literally! Symbols only. The universe eats itself for eternity. Death eats life and life creates death. Gotta get the point, not “oh my goodness what a fool for masking eternal wisdom in something offensive to the unwise”. This masking of the truth in parable and story and the reality behind it only to be perceived by those that “have ears to hear it” the deity of Israel did over and over. It’s how they do their poetry. Other prophets wrote about their interactions with other poetic imagery, including puffing up stories like Samson killing 1000 people with the jawbone of an ass, etc. Larger than life heros to which can be looked at archetypal rather than “this literally occurred”. What can you learn from it was the focus anciently, especially since it was oral lore. It wasn’t even written down until a long time later for the most part. It grew with each telling surely, but the stories are about each of us, they symbolize us in our lives. They are patterns, symbols, that is their value. They have applicable wisdom for everyday life.

[Davka]

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[psychoslice]

Why so many new threads start off as a wall of text? Uhh

I agree, I like the K.I.S.S philosophy.

[robvalue]

I'm well aware of logical fallacies and the scientific method. But I'm afraid I still have no idea what you are talking about. The scientific stance is that supernatural existence or causation cannot be demonstrated, because it cannot be measured. To determine facts about reality, you need something to measure. Just logic, philosophy and posturing is not sufficient. That is my opinion anyhow If something is not indepently verifiable, to produce consistent results, then it is not of any great value regarding knowledge.

If these other methods were reliable, they would be part of science too. It's like if alternative medicine worked, it would be just called medicine.

[Whateverist]

Do wish you'd try to say what ever it is you wish to say more simply. It is just too much to weed through all the fluff and stuff.

[Michael Schubert]

Stanislov Grof, a world renown psychologist whom I would recommend reading, (though some of his ideas to me seem old school, he is a pioneer in this science), says the only reason mainstream science as a whole rejects any notion of spirit, is because they haven't studied this area, they turn a blind eye to it because it interferes with their trajectory in life, their bias. Basically, the science of planet earth has not evolved enough to talk to all branches of itself successfully. Too many human emotions get involved with the scientists.

Things are changing though, with other pioneers in critical analysis of the experience of existing such as Carl Jung and his theories. He was quite psychic and looked at it through a scientific lense, and has a good way of putting it into comprehensible thought forms.

Grof sounds interesting. I'll look him up.

No one is psychic. For many years now, James Randi has been offering people exorbitant amounts of money to prove they are psychic and not a single individual has ever proven this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBpiV72pLAo