Statistical Evidence Against Christianity

[Lek]

Actually, yes. It's called being human; and that's something which tends to get thrown overboard in the race to claim moral superiority. That things taken to excess can be a detriment to the human condition is largely irrelevant.

I wasn't claiming moral superiority, I was giving my opinion about resisting things that are natural for us to desire, but are not good for us. My question was not irrelevant at all, Stimbo.

[Cyberman]

The question may not have been, but the fact that moderation in nearly all things is better for us as humans is, in terms of the course of this thread. Please try not to misapply my words; as an author I have a proprietorial concern for them.

And what is the desire for forgiveness and atonement but the search for the moral high ground?

[Tonus]

As far as teen pregnancy goes, I think that christian girls would be less likely to use birth control or get an abortion.

But just as likely to fornicate, apparently.

[Lek]

The question may not have been, but the fact that moderation in nearly all things is better for us as humans is, in terms of the course of this thread. Please try not to misapply my words; as an author I have a proprietorial concern for them.

And what is the desire for forgiveness and atonement but the search for the moral high ground?

I agree that moderation is nearly all things is better, but some things are better to avoid completely. The desire for forgiveness and atonement is recognition that we are sinners dependent on God, not a search for moral high ground.

[Minimalist]

but some things are better to avoid completely.

Agreed. Religion, first and foremost.

[dyresand]

The question may not have been, but the fact that moderation in nearly all things is better for us as humans is, in terms of the course of this thread. Please try not to misapply my words; as an author I have a proprietorial concern for them.

And what is the desire for forgiveness and atonement but the search for the moral high ground?

I agree that moderation is nearly all things is better, but some things are better to avoid completely. The desire for forgiveness and atonement is recognition that we are sinners dependent on God, not a search for moral high ground.

Why do you need forgiveness its a un-needed burden to be forgiven for what exactly. For being alive for being a human being you need forgiveness? Just stop for a moment and think about it. You have done nothing wrong to be asking for divine forgiveness even still you have the forgiveness from human beings like myself. Why carry around a burden like that dump it and be happy.

[goodwithoutgod]

This subject always tilts toward the invalid claim of moral superiority by theists, ad nauseam. However upon analysis, the exact opposite is evident.

One of my favorite books is Society without god by Phil Zuckerman. I highly recommend it. If I may, I have written a academic paper in relation to morals, and would like to share it for your perusal, denial, or affirmation.

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Moral Theology is the study of how persons live in response to what God has done for them (Mueller 221).

Morality is concerned with human conduct but goes to a deeper level of personhood, such that our conduct is a reflection of who we are, a reflection of our character (Mueller 221).

Ethics can be defined as a discussion of the formation of human conduct… How responsible human beings capable of critical judgment should live using reflection on fundamental issues in the description of concrete cases (Mueller 221).

Conscience is the voice of God written in our hearts, in accordance with the second Vatican Council. Natural law is considered one of the major sources of moral theology and answers the question: how do I know what is good or evil? Christians believe that natural law has been a factor in our decisions about what is morally right and wrong, good and evil (Mueller 222 – 227).

“This people who may personally and individually be moral and good people and have no intention of conflict and harm on others often share a Christian theory called the collective guilt “social sin.” (Mueller 257). The depths that theists go to fabricate the conception of sin knows no bounds, here you can be a good person yet you still have “social sin”. John Paul II said that social sins are “collective behavior of certain social groups, big or small, or even of whole nations or blocks of nations” (Mueller 258). Social sin becomes personal sin of individuals through complicity, indifference, or reluctance of those in a position to exert influence for change who do not do so (Mueller 258).

Catholic social teaching looks to gospel teaching to form the moral foundation the Catholic approach to questions of social justice, and assist the disciple in the ongoing task of reflecting on the challenge of Jesus in the sermon on the Mount and in discerning what it means in a consumer, technological, and globalized society to be poor in spirit and to embrace a sorrowing and the lowly (Mueller 260).

Secular morality is the aspect of philosophy that deals with morality outside of religious traditions. Modern examples include humanism, freethinking, and most versions of consequentialism. Additional philosophies with ancient roots include those such as skepticism and virtue ethics. Greg M. Epstein states, "much of ancient Far Eastern thought is deeply concerned with human goodness without placing much if any stock in the importance of gods or spirits. Other philosophers have proposed various ideas about how to determine right and wrong actions. An example is Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative: "The idea that actions can only be considered moral if they could be imitated by anyone else and produce good results."

A variety of positions is apparent regarding the relationship between religion and morality. Some believe that religion is necessary as a guide to a moral life. This idea has been with us for nearly 2,000 years. There are various thoughts regarding how this idea has arisen. For example, Greg Epstein suggests that this idea is connected to a concerted effort by theists to question nonreligious ideas: "conservative authorities have, since ancient days, had a clever counter strategy against religious skepticism—convincing people that atheism is evil, and then accusing their enemies of being atheists.

Others eschew the idea that religion is required to provide a guide to right and wrong behavior. Interestingly the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Ethics states that religion and morality "are to be defined differently and have no definitional connections with each other". Some believe that religions provide poor guides to moral behavior.

Popular atheist author and biologist Richard Dawkins, writing in The God Delusion, has stated that religious people have committed a wide variety of acts and held certain beliefs through history that are considered today to be morally repugnant. He has stated that Adolf Hitler and the Nazis held broadly Christian religious beliefs that inspired the Holocaust on account of antisemitic Christian doctrine, that Christians have traditionally imposed unfair restrictions on the legal and civil rights of women, and that Christians have condoned slavery of some form or description throughout most of Christianity's history.

Dawkins insists that, since Jewish and Christian interpretations of the Bible have changed over the span of history so that what was formerly seen as permissible is now seen as impermissible, it is intellectually dishonest for them to believe theism provides an absolute moral foundation apart from secular intuition. In addition, he argued that since Christians and other religious groups do not acknowledge the binding authority of all parts of their holy texts (e.g., The books of Exodus and Leviticus state that those who work on the Sabbath and those caught performing acts of homosexuality, respectively, were to be put to death.), they are already capable of distinguishing "right" from "wrong." (Boghossian 248).

The well-known passage from Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov, "If God is dead, all is permitted," suggests that non-believers would not hold moral lives without the possibility of punishment by a God. This is absurd as all one has to do is look at Denmark or Sweden to see that these largely atheist areas enjoy being at the top tier of civilization. This is broken down in great detail in a book by Phil Zuckerman, "Society without god".

Phil Zuckerman, associate professor of sociology at Pitzer College in California, in his article, "Is Faith Good For Us" states the following: "A comparison of highly irreligious countries with highly religious countries, however, reveals a very different state of affairs. In reality, the most secular countries-those with the highest proportion of atheists and agnostics-are among the most stable, peaceful, free, wealthy, and healthy societies. And the most religious nations-wherein worship of God is in abundance-are among the most unstable, violent, oppressive, poor, and destitute."

A study by Gregory S. Paul, entitled "Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies: A First Look," was done and the study's conclusion was that there was an inverse relationship between religion and poor societal health rates. What that means is that the higher the level of religious belief in a country, the lower the level of societal health (more violent crimes, suicides, teen pregnancies, etc.).

So it seems that a plethora of evidence exists to show that not only do we not need religion in our lives to be good humans, but that having it in our lives can be counter-productive and unhealthy.

Works cited

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Boghossian, Peter. A Manual for Creating Atheists. Durham: Pitchstone Publishing, 2013. Print.

Zuckerman, Phil. Society without god: What the least religious nations can tell us about contentment. New York: New York University Press, 2008. Print.

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Thoughts?

[Nope]

Christians are no better or worse than any other group. When I bring this fact up to Christian friends they always respond that salvation didn't remove their humanity. Yet these same people believe the becoming Christian makes them a better person. They want to claim religion causes a change in a true Christians life until it is shown that it hasn't, then suddenly they are only human.

[Godscreated]

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(insert 'American' in front of 'Christians' and 'non-Christians' for clarity)

So here's the thing; Christianity says it changes people. That's one of the core claims about the faith; it makes you a new and better person, desirous of being loving and of following the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.

In other words, Christians should be living differently from non-Christians. There should be, as the Bible puts it, recognizable "fruit' in their lives.

But statistics tell us a different story. Teen pregnancy rates among Christians are the same as in the population at large. Divorce, drug addiction, alcoholism, domestic abuse, rates of incarceration - all of these tell us that Christians live and act just like non-Christians.

Now, some Christians will tell you that this is because most of the people who call themselves Christians aren't True ChristiansTM - but this argument doesn't hold water. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that only 10% of the people who identify as Christians are, in fact, ChristiansTM - fair enough?

Well, even if that were true, there would still be a statistically significant difference between the actions of those who call themselves Christians and those who do not. It would be smaller, but it would still exist.

But it doesn't.

Another counter-argument is that we don't know what sort of people these Christians were before they got saved, so we can't really know how much they have changed. Unfortunately, there are plenty of serious jerks among the unsaved as well! And besides, the Bible doesn't say "you will become less of a jerk and end up statistically indistinguishable from the average person." It say's you'll be really, noticeably different - so different, in fact, that the world will know you by your love for one-another.

But we don't. You can't tell the Christians from the non-Christians without asking them. Christians sue each-other just as often as non-Christians. They divorce just as often. This is not particularly "loving" behavior.

Bottom line: The Bible does not deliver on its promise to make people new, more loving, more considerate, or less judgmental. The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that little label they give themselves when asked (and often tell you even when not asked).

Christians bear no fruit. Unless you count Westboro Baptist.

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The two contributions you made to this tread shows the truth found in the scriptures. Few will find the narrow path that leads to salvation and a changed life, the wide road will carry those who refuse to accept the gift of grace, salvation and live in the world. Doesn't matter the name one attaches to themselves, it is the actions that represent the name that show they are the real deal. Thank you for that conformation, see the Bible still effects you, and God said He would use anyone to bring truth. Consider yourself as being a part of God's work.

GC

[fr0d0]

Now, some Christians will tell you that this is because most of the people who call themselves Christians aren't True ChristiansTM - but this argument doesn't hold water. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that only 10% of the people who identify as Christians are, in fact, ChristiansTM - fair enough?

No. It's more like 1%

And most Christians I know weren't nice people to start off with. Their lives turned around would make them appear to be normal at best. "Fruits" in their case appear to be insignificant statistically.

I concur that the fruits of faith are not in the things you mention. Is easy to criticise fallibility. We're all prone to it, and salvation although successful in counteracting it can never completely defeat it. It's an ongoing struggle.