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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 3:05 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 4:03 pm by Heywood.)
(January 27, 2015 at 8:20 am)Chas Wrote: (January 27, 2015 at 7:41 am)Heywood Wrote: What makes biology special in your mind that it can be the only thing in the universe which can evolve? Why can't cars, or sets of variables in a computer evolve?
I have not said that.
However, your whole thesis is about demonstrating that biological evolution requires intellect. If your 'evolution' examples aren't isomorphic to biological evolution, your argument becomes trivial and uninteresting.
The examples and biological evolution are isomorphic because they all satisfy the same definition. The definition is reasonable and it isn't specific to evolutionary systems which required intellect. Your argument that replication has to be self-reproduction is hallow and just an attempt to sneak in a new definition of evolution through the back door. You do this so that you can then claim the examples are not isomorphic with biological evolution. You're straw manning.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 3:13 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 3:14 pm by Surgenator.)
@ Heywood
If a system reached its maximum fitness evolving and its environment is stable, is it evolving?
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 3:18 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 3:05 pm)Heywood Wrote: All you have to do in order to falsify the proposition is come up with an observation that satisfies the definition but is known to have originated without intellect. Which has been done, and yet you persist...so clearly...that's not -all- it takes to satisfy.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 3:25 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 3:13 pm)Surgenator Wrote: @Heywood
If a system reached its maximum fitness evolving and its environment is stable, is it evolving?
Is the crocodile evolving? It's remained largely unchanged for 250 million years. Evolution hits plateaus but just because a plateaus is hit doesn't mean the process has stopped. As long as you have replication, heritiable traits, change, and selection you have evolution.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 3:26 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 3:25 pm)Heywood Wrote: (January 27, 2015 at 3:13 pm)Surgenator Wrote: @Heywood
If a system reached its maximum fitness evolving and its environment is stable, is it evolving?
Is the crocodile evolving? It's remained largely unchanged for 250 million years. Evolution hits plateaus but just because a plateaus is hit doesn't mean the process has stopped. As long as you have replication, heritiable traits, change, and selection you have evolution.
Actually I agree with this.
Now I feel dirty.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 3:28 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 3:18 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 27, 2015 at 3:05 pm)Heywood Wrote: All you have to do in order to falsify the proposition is come up with an observation that satisfies the definition but is known to have originated without intellect. Which has been done, and yet you persist...so clearly...that's not -all- it takes to satisfy.
It has not been done. Your claim that it has been done but it is just buried in this thread is like a fundamentalist claiming the proof of God is buried in the bible. Saying what you would like reality to be does not change reality.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 3:38 pm
It isn't buried at all. You've been given the exact post, it's been quoted...and when you decide to go on a "this thread doesn't exist/that never happened" kick..you've been outed as a liar -every single time-. This claim of yours that all that is needed is a single observation is as obvious a lie as the lie that none has been given.
Carry on.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 4:00 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 3:26 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: (January 27, 2015 at 3:25 pm)Heywood Wrote: Is the crocodile evolving? It's remained largely unchanged for 250 million years. Evolution hits plateaus but just because a plateaus is hit doesn't mean the process has stopped. As long as you have replication, heritiable traits, change, and selection you have evolution.
Actually I agree with this.
Now I feel dirty.
Evolution doesn't always lead to advancement. Some evolved abilities can be lost if they no longer contribute to fitness. This is actually kind of a scary thought for me because humans of course are evolving. Imagine that if in the near future we create machine minds which are intellectually superior to us. Suppose those minds are benevolent to us and take care of us. If our own intelligence is no longer contributing to our fitness we may loose it. A million years from now, our descendants might be as intelligent as cows.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 4:03 pm
I'd hardly notice, particularly with regards to -some- of us.....
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 27, 2015 at 4:05 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 4:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'd hardly notice, particularly with regards to -some- of us.....
You hardly notice anything your so busy chewing that cud.
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