If

[Ben Davis]

But again the car like the brain are not the driver or the I so it is obvious that the two are separate entities.

You're labouring under a serious apprehension. The 'I' does not come after or before the 'brain', they're simultaneous. The evidence demonstrates that the 'I' is the qualia of neuro-processing, that is to say 'I' is how it feels to be a brain when it's functioning. It's not known exactly understand why this is the case but we know, almost unequivocally, that it is the case. It's far from a simple concept and one which no-one really understands but we must try or else none of us can make progress.

[Little Rik]

You are presuming that when the brain is engaged in the dream activity the I is off when the medical science has still to discover how the system works.
The medical science still hasn't got a clue about the role of the consciousness and the interaction between the brain and the consciousness but you come out with your ......I SAID SO.

So now that you have an argument against your claims, you are claiming that "medical science" doesn't know enough about it? Then how do you know anything about the brain and the level of control that the "I" has? It seems to me that you go entirely by which version of "I SAID SO" you happen to like, and not by any sort of actual understanding of how the brain works.
You're taking steps back again, Rik. You're going to wind up back where you started! Try to keep up!

Some people make things very very complicated when in reality it is all very very simple.
You may remember the story of the 3 horses that i described maybe a year ago.
Well, probably not so i come back again with the same story.
There is a cart with 3 horses.
The first horse represent the body, the second the mind and the third the spirit.
Now in order for the cart to go straight along the road that lead to the goal all the 3 horses must be fed properly.
Just imagine if only one or two horses are fed and one or two are left starving.
It is obvious that the cart could not proceed properly.
So a perfect balance or better say a perfect PARALLELISM must be there.
Death happen when the parallelism is lost.
Some people may be very very intelligent but their body is rotten or some people may have a good body but mind and spirit are totally negletted.
You may find beautiful people but with a chicken brain.
Or you may find highly spiritual people with a very weak body.
The cart may still proceed in these circumstances but it is a very hard going so it is important that a perfect parallelism is there.
In any cases if even one horse is not there nothing move.
Have you ever seen a cart going with two horses alive and one dead proceeding as usual?
Well you could say......let us get rid of the dead one and proceed with only two horses but that is not possible in this universal dimension.
In different dimension where exist pure consciousness it is possible as proven by thousand of NDEs but in this dimension it is not possible so if the brain may dream also the I and the body are alive and awake as the parallelism among the 3 side of ourselves is on.

---

But again the car like the brain are not the driver or the I so it is obvious that the two are separate entities.

You're labouring under a serious apprehension. The 'I' does not come after or before the 'brain', they're simultaneous. The evidence demonstrates that the 'I' is the qualia of neuro-processing, that is to say 'I' is how it feels to be a brain when it's functioning. It's not known exactly understand why this is the case but we know, almost unequivocally, that it is the case. It's far from a simple concept and one which no-one really understands but we must try or else none of us can make progress.

When i say that the two are separate entities i do not imply that there is no connection among the two.
If you read my previous post you may understand that the 3 horses are there working together in the effort to pull the cart and at the same time they are separate entities.

[Surgenator]

Going backwards

[robvalue]

The frog who jumps up two steps to try to get out of the well always slides three steps back. How will he ever get out?

He turns round.

[Tonus]

Some people make things very very complicated when in reality it is all very very simple.

That you actually followed this up with that ridiculous story about horses and chicken brains is hysterical. Are you really this lacking in self-awareness, or are you the greatest Poe ever?

[Little Rik]

Some people make things very very complicated when in reality it is all very very simple.

That you actually followed this up with that ridiculous story about horses and chicken brains is hysterical. Are you really this lacking in self-awareness, or are you the greatest Poe ever?

Do you find ridiculous that life is like a cart pulled by 3 horses?
Well, that's no problem with me.
As far as you are happy with 2 horses (body& mind) and that physical science can deliver the goods go for it.
If you than find that peace of mind is missing then you can always rethink.
Nothing is really lost.
The only trouble is that you may realize that you have been wasting so many lives chasing a dream.

---

Going backwards

Any example of this going backwards?

[Surgenator]

You wouldn't see it no matter how many times I show it. You don't reflect on what people have said to you in any meaningful way. You're responses are just reactionary, no deep thinking involved.

[Whateverist]

That you actually followed this up with that ridiculous story about horses and chicken brains is hysterical. Are you really this lacking in self-awareness, or are you the greatest Poe ever?

Do you find ridiculous that life is like a cart pulled by 3 horses?
Well, that's no problem with me.
As far as you are happy with 2 horses (body& mind) and that physical science can deliver the goods go for it.
If you than find that peace of mind is missing then you can always rethink.
Nothing is really lost.
The only trouble is that you may realize that you have been wasting so many lives chasing a dream.

I think he just found it ridiculous that you would think analogies to horses, carts and chickens was a decisive demonstration that the situation in question was simple. Your unsupported claim was as simple as it was strange. But you've persuaded no one that consciousness, mind/body or personal identity are so simple as you say.

It may seem simple to you just because that is the best you can do. My new theory is that the reason you don't address the particulars of anyone's points is that you are not capable of doing so. I wonder if you realize how pompous and foolish this makes you seem.

[Tonus]

As far as you are happy with 2 horses (body& mind) and that physical science can deliver the goods go for it.

That's the great thing. I don't have to "go for it." What you or I state about the matter doesn't change the truth about the matter. But making up stuff about it in the quest for some greater prize that is no more real than your analogies makes no sense to me. None at all. This forum is full of examples of people who fill the gaps in our understanding of the world with gods and ghosts and spirits and who sneer at anyone who demands something more than "I said so" or "I read it in this dusty old book." They're all just as certain as you are that their version is the right one, and that you have it wrong. And all they have are crazy analogies and stunted reasoning, too.

Meanwhile, real science (not the intuitional, spiritual, or nonsensical sciences) continues to do stuff. Invent stuff. Learn stuff. Improve stuff. They can do that because that science has to be testable, repeatable, and verifiable. Then it can be developed and improved, and we wind up with cures for diseases, or ways to filter water, or a more comfortable chair, or a computer that allows you to communicate with people around the world at the speed of electronic signals. They're the guys who will eventually explain NDEs and then you'll have to find some other "proof" of the separation of the mind and body. And then they'll explain that one, too.

[Little Rik]

You wouldn't see it no matter how many times I show it. You don't reflect on what people have said to you in any meaningful way. You're responses are just reactionary, no deep thinking involved.

Perfect.
Just as i already knew.
You are just like that guy that boost himself high and then when the time come to show the goods he says that he got them But they will come at the later time or that you wouldn't understand them so he wouldn't show them.

---

I think he just found it ridiculous that you would think analogies to horses, carts and chickens was a decisive demonstration that the situation in question was simple. Your unsupported claim was as simple as it was strange. But you've persuaded no one that consciousness, mind/body or personal identity are so simple as you say.

And the unsupported claim is?

It may seem simple to you just because that is the best you can do. My new theory is that the reason you don't address the particulars of anyone's points is that you are not capable of doing so. I wonder if you realize how pompous and foolish this makes you seem.

Any example of the points that i suppose not to address?
I hope you don't sink down the hole like brother surgen that claim that i go backwards and then when i asked him to produce any example of his claim he doesn't.

---

As far as you are happy with 2 horses (body& mind) and that physical science can deliver the goods go for it.

That's the great thing. I don't have to "go for it." What you or I state about the matter doesn't change the truth about the matter. But making up stuff about it in the quest for some greater prize that is no more real than your analogies makes no sense to me. None at all. This forum is full of examples of people who fill the gaps in our understanding of the world with gods and ghosts and spirits and who sneer at anyone who demands something more than "I said so" or "I read it in this dusty old book." They're all just as certain as you are that their version is the right one, and that you have it wrong. And all they have are crazy analogies and stunted reasoning, too.

Analogies can or can not be crazy.
It all depend whether they make any sense or not.
I said that human life is like a cart pulled by 3 horses.
You may or may not agree with it.
If you don't agree with it then you may say that body and mind is all a human being needs and i can understand that, after all not everybody consciousness reach the stage in which the need for total peace of mind emerge.
In this case that person can well be happy with what he-she got.
Actually i never ever seen anyone happy with what they got that is why i don't believe them.

Meanwhile, real science (not the intuitional, spiritual, or nonsensical sciences) continues to do stuff. Invent stuff. Learn stuff. Improve stuff. They can do that because that science has to be testable, repeatable, and verifiable. Then it can be developed and improved, and we wind up with cures for diseases, or ways to filter water, or a more comfortable chair, or a computer that allows you to communicate with people around the world at the speed of electronic signals. They're the guys who will eventually explain NDEs and then you'll have to find some other "proof" of the separation of the mind and body. And then they'll explain that one, too.

You are very funny Ton.
You are mixing staying afloat with the real progress.
I am not saying that discovering things is nothing.
On the contrary i think that it is very important for our survival but the good thing stop right here because as soon as we discover something a new problem pop up from nowhere so where suppose to be the real progress that stop the rot once and for all?
But don't despair Ton sooner or later you like everybody else will come to the conclusion that real progress has nothing to do with this physical dimension.