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September 8, 2010 at 4:15 pm (This post was last modified: September 8, 2010 at 4:28 pm by Realmleader.)
(September 8, 2010 at 6:03 am)theVOID Wrote: Let's see what you have so far...
[a]Your personal experiences (aka conformation bias)
[b]Your family agree with you
[c]You believe in the bible because the bible says it's true
[d]You think you have a relationship with a wizard.
[e]You think the wizard's son has taught you things.
Anything i missed?
[a]IS it bias? Yes, personal Bias, but every decision we make has some degree of personal bias.
[b]My family? Feh. Don't make me laugh, I told you my mother told me stories, you do not know the nature of my *family* Do the people I count as significant agree with me? No, not all of them, but at least 40%, the others are Atheist, or luke warm agnostics.
[c]Yes, the bible is reliable in my eyes, in my belief, that is why it's called Faith.
[d]A wizard? Maybe if he talked to me right.....no not really. I believe I have a relationship (and I appreciate your careful note in using the word "relationship") with the Creator, and yes, I am very familiar with the no true scotsman deal, so if your warming up for that lets get it it.
[e]Through Experience, yes.
So what conclusions do you draw from this Void?
Much of the same I hope.
Realm
(September 8, 2010 at 8:31 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Realm,
Now, I'm not going to ask how your personal experiences are evidence of God. I'm going to ask how you think any personal experience can possibly be evidence for God. How is not any alternative more probable?
You asked this question well, your no doubt the smart one. Think back to Paul though... I thought he had it all figured out until he was struck down on Damascus, (that is really stretching it for my version of 'experience' but that point remains) He learned from this exp. changed his outlook drastically, and began living a Christ centered life. As i stated before, this was just the seed that took root for me, I've strengthened my faith since. But personal experience has compounded every chapter in my life.
(September 7, 2010 at 11:35 pm)Realmleader Wrote: A quick question, how exactly does Agnostic Christian work?[referring to Watson] I am in my dorm right now, munching on McD's from last night, I laughed (mouth full, so it didn't end well ) and shook my head at the sight. I mean no offense, but it is air to admit I am skeptical. Just a quick elaboration (look at me using big words xD) on what your definition of Christian and Agnostic should clean it up.
Quote:Considering the fact you believe your own personal experience is why you believe in God, that cannot possibly be absolute proof because it's inductive at best. And because of the problem of induction, no amount of experience can prove something to be real. So from your position, it is only intellectually honest if you are agnostic on the matter of your belief. Claiming absolute knowledge when you believe via personal experience is irrational. It is only if you have analytic, deductive, proof that it could be possible to rationally be gnostic instead of agnostic. And, if you have analytic, deductive support for your belief as opposed to just personal experience, then the personal experience isn't needed at all because you have proof elsewhere (and as I said, personal experience can't be proof).
No, personal Experience cannot be the proof you give to others, but it can be plenty proof for one self.
If I said to you that peanut butter and honey made a great sandwich and you asked me how I knew, I wuld say to, "I tried it! It was awesome!" (granted any number of atheist will wish to step in and say they've tried God and are X-christians) But will my testimony be good enough for skeptical old you? No, I think you would have to see for yourself. But my own experimentation with Peanut Butter and honey is more than enough to tell me it is good. To understand how something works people experience it, then run the tests to figure it out. I couldn't begin to tell you how a television works, but from personal experience I can tell you that it is entertaining.
Your questions are rock solid good, and I hope my answers do them justice,
Realm
September 8, 2010 at 8:44 pm (This post was last modified: September 8, 2010 at 8:52 pm by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
(September 7, 2010 at 4:47 pm)Watson Wrote: Hey there, Realm! I think you'll find that once in a while, the debate ere can be very stimulating and open. I hope you'll get a kick out of this place. And don't worry about some of these guys- their bark is much worse than their bite.
A vile canard. My bite is quite nasty if I remember to put in my teeth.
G'day Realm, from sunny Adelaide South Australia, city of churches and bizarre murder capital of my great nation (really)
It's not my practice to welcome deists until they'v established some credibility. Currently there are two; Watson and Tacky. I really can't be bothered with the rest.
(September 7, 2010 at 4:47 pm)Watson Wrote: Hey there, Realm! I think you'll find that once in a while, the debate ere can be very stimulating and open. I hope you'll get a kick out of this place. And don't worry about some of these guys- their bark is much worse than their bite.
A vile canard. My bite is quite nasty if I remember to put in my teeth.
G'day Realm, from sunny Adelaide South Australia, city of churches and bizarre murder capital of my great nation (really)
It's not my practice to welcome deists until they'v established some credibility. Currently there are two; Watson and Tacky. I really can't be bothered with the rest.
I hope you're one of the rare exceptions.
Your Aussie!?!?!? CRIKEY! I absolutely adore that accent! G'day to you too mate xD Forgive I am not making fun, I really do enjoy listening the Australians speak. As far as my being a 'rare exception', I am just gonna be myself, and it that works then jim dandy, it if doesn't then oh well.
Quote:[b]My family? Feh. Don't make me laugh, I told you my mother told me stories, you do not know the nature of my *family* Do the people I count as significant agree with me? No, not all of them, but at least 40%, the others are Atheist, or luke warm agnostics.
This was response to Watson giving significance to his families agreemnt with him, which is a fallacy. I didn't expect this to apply to you.
Quote:[c]Yes, the bible is reliable in my eyes, in my belief, that is why it's called Faith.
what parts of the bible? Do you accept all of the bible? I would doubt it... unless you think bashing the children of your enemies with rocks is a good thing to do (psalms 137:9)
If not then you are clearly judging the bible by your own standards, and if you are capable of doing that then why bother with it in the first place? Your ability to pick and chose from this so called "inspired" text shows that you have your own standards which are not necessarily related to the contents of the book it's self and that you impose your standards onto the book.
This essentially makes the bible a crutch for some intelelcual or emotional vulnerability, namely incredulity.
Quote:[d]A wizard? Maybe if he talked to me right.....no not really. I believe I have a relationship (and I appreciate your careful note in using the word "relationship") with the Creator, and yes, I am very familiar with the no true scotsman deal, so if your warming up for that lets get it it.
Great, so why do you think you have a relationship with the cosmic wizard?
Quote:[e]Through Experience, yes.
When personal experience can lead to so many contradictory conclusions, especially when considering propositions like cosmic wizards that are by their very definition non-verifiable and unfalsifiable, why do you consider it to be in any way a sufficient standard for determining truth?
Quote:So what conclusions do you draw from this Void?
That you are experiencing a long term brain-fart that has convinced you that you are friends with a cosmic wizard.
' Wrote:You asked this question well, your no doubt the smart one. Think back to Paul though... I thought he had it all figured out until he was struck down on Damascus, (that is really stretching it for my version of 'experience' but that point remains) He learned from this exp. changed his outlook drastically, and began living a Christ centered life. As i stated before, this was just the seed that took root for me, I've strengthened my faith since. But personal experience has compounded every chapter in my life.
You didn't answer his question
Quote:If I said to you that peanut butter and honey made a great sandwich and you asked me how I knew, I wuld say to, "I tried it! It was awesome!" (granted any number of atheist will wish to step in and say they've tried God and are X-christians) But will my testimony be good enough for skeptical old you? No, I think you would have to see for yourself.
"Peanut butter is good" is entirely different from "peanut butter exists".
If we were debating whether or not X concept of god is "good" (as in desirable) then your analogy would be suitable, however since we are not, you have commtted false analogy. Would the idea of a wizard who makes everything work and looks after me and offers eternal life be good? Probably, depeinding on the specifics, does the fact that we can find such a conceptual to be 'good' have anythign at all to do with it's existence? Not at all.
September 9, 2010 at 12:21 am (This post was last modified: September 9, 2010 at 12:25 am by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
Quote: I absolutely adore that accent!
Accent? What accent? Only foreigners have accents ,Eg Americans, Brits, the French.
I like the more gentile Southern accents and New England, but find the 'mid Atlantic' accent irritating. My favourite accent is Canadian. my mum is Canadian born.
Come on down for a holiday. That will cure you of any love of our accent. You won't actually understand pure 'strine. Just remember this is the southern hemisphere,the seasons are reversed(we're just coming into Spring) Our 'south' (tropics) is about 2000 miles north of here.
Below is a link explaining a bit about 'strine (Australian English) The books by the eminent Australian academic, ,Professor Afferbeck Lauder,are still in print. A lot of Aussies actually DO speak like that in rural areas and in that vast wasteland, devoid of kultcha, taste,interest or intellect; the suburbs..
September 9, 2010 at 9:20 am (This post was last modified: September 9, 2010 at 9:23 am by Realmleader.)
(September 8, 2010 at 9:22 pm)theVOID Wrote: [quote='Realmleader' pid='92406' dateline='1283976953']
[a]IS it bias? Yes, personal Bias, but every decision we make has some degree of personal bias.
Quote:Conformation bias is something more than that, it's a common factor in theistic arguments, especially in relation to personal experiences:
Ahh, thankyou very much, that link was very helpful! So generous for you to give me a leg up instead of allowing me to look the fool. So you think I turn a blind eye to all of the reasons there shouldn't be a God? What reasons might those be?
Quote:[b]My family? Feh. Don't make me laugh, I told you my mother told me stories, you do not know the nature of my *family* Do the people I count as significant agree with me? No, not all of them, but at least 40%, the others are Atheist, or luke warm agnostics.
Quote:This was response to Watson giving significance to his families agreemnt with him, which is a fallacy. I didn't expect this to apply to you.
Oh well my bad, and why didn't you expect it? That is generally the first thing I hear.
Sorry.
Quote:[c]Yes, the bible is reliable in my eyes, in my belief, that is why it's called Faith.
Quote:what parts of the bible? Do you accept all of the bible? I would doubt it... unless you think bashing the children of your enemies with rocks is a good thing to do (psalms 137:9)
Well, I won't 'cherry pick', it's all or nothing, I can't claim to understand such action or even pretend for a moment that in that day in time I would condone it, were it within my power to stop it. BUT it's in the Bible for a reason, God has standards we will never be able to reach, furthermore He has all of the attributes we think we understand, but the the Nth degree. Don't ask me how I can sit here and tell you that killing innocent children is a standard I can't reach, cuz' that's not what I mean. It's hard to say for sure, but I just have faith that God is not something or Someone we can ever understand. So what parts of the Bible>? All of it. I also believe that a great deal of the Old testament serves as a catalyst for the New. Who is to say that God did not know something we didn't? All knowing remember?
Quote:This essentially makes the bible a crutch for some intelelcual or emotional vulnerability, namely incredulity.
A cheap shot at best. Don't expect retaliation here buddie I 'll just call you out if your rude.
Quote:[d]A wizard? Maybe if he talked to me right.....no not really. I believe I have a relationship (and I appreciate your careful note in using the word "relationship") with the Creator, and yes, I am very familiar with the no true scotsman deal, so if your warming up for that lets get it it.
Quote:Great, so why do you think you have a relationship with the cosmic wizard?
Why do I think I've a relationship with a God? (much harder to believe than a wizard, you give me too much credit) It's a very simple honest matter. I can;t use anything other than the honest truth. He guides me through life. He is there to catch me (literal sense) when I fall (metaphorical) He is there to give me gentle reminders throughout my day when I neglect to keep Him a part of it, I get those a lot these days, being in College it is easy to forget Him sometimes How do you know you have any relationships?
Quote:[e]Through Experience, yes.
Quote:When personal experience can lead to so many contradictory conclusions, especially when considering propositions like cosmic wizards that are by their very definition non-verifiable and unfalsifiable, why do you consider it to be in any way a sufficient standard for determining truth?
People tend to base what they believe in on their own personal experiences. They like to believe in what the evidence points at sometimes even when the evidence is based on a misconception. The truth is out there and it's not beyond our reach. Those who desire the truth more than they desire to find evidence that supports what they choose to believe in will eventually find the truth providing they never give up
Now, I'm not going to ask how your personal experiences are evidence of God. I'm going to ask how you think any personal experience can possibly be evidence for God. How is not any alternative more probable?
Firstly, what sort of alternative did you have in mind? And are you telling me, that if you had a personal experience with God, that wouldn't be enough?
(September 9, 2010 at 9:20 am)Realmleader Wrote: Ahh, thankyou very much, that link was very helpful! So generous for you to give me a leg up instead of allowing me to look the fool. So you think I turn a blind eye to all of the reasons there shouldn't be a God? What reasons might those be?
This just shows you don't get the fundamental problem - regardless of any reasons to disbelieve in the existence of a deity there still remain no positive reasons for his existence (ie evidence or logical necessity), therefore assuming he does exist is irrational.
You seem to be suffering from the typical theistic indredulity, ie "I can't see how it's possible therefore wizard did it" - after this assumption you sit back and expect someone to disprove your bogus conclusion.
If you have arguments for the existence of God now would be a good time to present them.
Quote:I didn't expect it because you weren't the one who attached family aproval to the validity of their beliefs., that was Watson with his typical barrage of fallacies.
I'm not going to argue that your beliefs are invalid because someone agrees with you, as far as i'm concerned it's entirely unrelated to the truth of the proposition in question.
Quote:Well, I won't 'cherry pick', it's all or nothing,
Oh really? So you don't eat shellfish? Do you condem people who do? What about numbers 13:7-18 or numbers 21:10-24. Are you really saying that these things are just? At what point exactly did you throw your brain and moral compass into a bin?
Quote: I can't claim to understand such action or even pretend for a moment that in that day in time I would condone it, were it within my power to stop it. BUT it's in the Bible for a reason, God has standards we will never be able to reach,
Well according to you god's standards involves killing infants - that is something you would certainly be able to live up to if you genuinely thought it was a good thing.
Quote: furthermore He has all of the attributes we think we understand, but the the Nth degree. Don't ask me how I can sit here and tell you that killing innocent children is a standard I can't reach, cuz' that's not what I mean. It's hard to say for sure, but I just have faith that God is not something or Someone we can ever understand. So what parts of the Bible>? All of it. I also believe that a great deal of the Old testament serves as a catalyst for the New. Who is to say that God did not know something we didn't? All knowing remember?
So because you can't understand his reasons for doing something you are in no position to have your own opinion on the matter? Bullshit. Under what context is bashing infants to death moral?
Quote:A cheap shot at best. Don't expect retaliation here buddie I 'll just call you out if your rude.
You've already admitted you're willing to throw your moral compass out the window when it comes to anything attributed to God, so i stand by my statement.
And also, by not acting out the commandments in the bible, even though you claim it is to be taken verbaitim by order of the Wizard makes you hypocritical.
Quote:Why do I think I've a relationship with a God? (much harder to believe than a wizard, you give me too much credit) It's a very simple honest matter. I can;t use anything other than the honest truth. He guides me through life. He is there to catch me (literal sense) when I fall (metaphorical) He is there to give me gentle reminders throughout my day when I neglect to keep Him a part of it, I get those a lot these days, being in College it is easy to forget Him sometimes How do you know you have any relationships?
And this pretty much sums it all up, you are more interesting in comfort than truth.
Quote: The truth is out there and it's not beyond our reach.
Bare assettion fallacy.
Quote: Those who desire the truth more than they desire to find evidence that supports what they choose to believe in will eventually find the truth providing they never give up
WTF... I don't know where to begin other than to say this statement is riddled with stupid (try not to take too much offence).
1) this is about what we have sufficient reason to believe. Evidence for a proposition provides reason for believing in this proposition, provided that there isn't more evidence for a compeeting position - Your wizard has no evidence in his favor.
2) You've here said that you desire the truth, even though just above you made it pretty damn clear than you believe out of comfort.
3) Finding evidence that supports one's previous conclusions is a top down approach, that is theism that you have attacked, not the bottom up approach that follows the evidence to it's natural conclusion. there is no evidence at all that indicates the existence of any deity.
4) If one wants to know the truth there is no guarantee that they will eventually find it. This assumes the ultimate truth that you are so readily and foolishly attributing to a deity is possible to be known at all.
It seems to me that you are so needy for an ultimate conclusion that you have completely overlooked the fact that we at present have no rational way of arriving at one.
Quote:Firstly, what sort of alternative did you have in mind? And are you telling me, that if you had a personal experience with God, that wouldn't be enough?
Is the experience a muslim has for the existence of Allah specifically as a singular entity less valid than your experience of a trinity? Them two conclusions are contradictory, the Wizard cannot both have a son and not have a son simultaneously.
Do you think your experiences are more valid than those of anyone who disageees with you? If not then in order to determing whether or not your experiences are more legitimate you must resort to a higher standard of evience, and when you take that step and disgreard all the subjective noise there is out there you will be able to see that no such standard permits your theism.
(September 9, 2010 at 9:20 am)Realmleader Wrote: Ahh, thankyou very much, that link was very helpful! So generous for you to give me a leg up instead of allowing me to look the fool. So you think I turn a blind eye to all of the reasons there shouldn't be a God? What reasons might those be?
This just shows you don't get the fundamental problem - regardless of any reasons to disbelieve in the existence of a deity there still remain no positive reasons for his existence (ie evidence or logical necessity), therefore assuming he does exist is irrational.
You seem to be suffering from the typical theistic indredulity, ie "I can't see how it's possible therefore wizard did it" - after this assumption you sit back and expect someone to disprove your bogus conclusion.
If you have arguments for the existence of God now would be a good time to present them.
Quote:I didn't expect it because you weren't the one who attached family aproval to the validity of their beliefs., that was Watson with his typical barrage of fallacies.
I'm not going to argue that your beliefs are invalid because someone agrees with you, as far as i'm concerned it's entirely unrelated to the truth of the proposition in question.
Quote:Well, I won't 'cherry pick', it's all or nothing,
Oh really? So you don't eat shellfish? Do you condem people who do? What about numbers 13:7-18 or numbers 21:10-24. Are you really saying that these things are just? At what point exactly did you throw your brain and moral compass into a bin?
Quote: I can't claim to understand such action or even pretend for a moment that in that day in time I would condone it, were it within my power to stop it. BUT it's in the Bible for a reason, God has standards we will never be able to reach,
Well according to you god's standards involves killing infants - that is something you would certainly be able to live up to if you genuinely thought it was a good thing.
Quote: furthermore He has all of the attributes we think we understand, but the the Nth degree. Don't ask me how I can sit here and tell you that killing innocent children is a standard I can't reach, cuz' that's not what I mean. It's hard to say for sure, but I just have faith that God is not something or Someone we can ever understand. So what parts of the Bible>? All of it. I also believe that a great deal of the Old testament serves as a catalyst for the New. Who is to say that God did not know something we didn't? All knowing remember?
So because you can't understand his reasons for doing something you are in no position to have your own opinion on the matter? Bullshit. Under what context is bashing infants to death moral?
Quote:A cheap shot at best. Don't expect retaliation here buddie I 'll just call you out if your rude.
You've already admitted you're willing to throw your moral compass out the window when it comes to anything attributed to God, so i stand by my statement.
And also, by not acting out the commandments in the bible, even though you claim it is to be taken verbaitim by order of the Wizard makes you hypocritical.
Quote:Why do I think I've a relationship with a God? (much harder to believe than a wizard, you give me too much credit) It's a very simple honest matter. I can;t use anything other than the honest truth. He guides me through life. He is there to catch me (literal sense) when I fall (metaphorical) He is there to give me gentle reminders throughout my day when I neglect to keep Him a part of it, I get those a lot these days, being in College it is easy to forget Him sometimes How do you know you have any relationships?
And this pretty much sums it all up, you are more interesting in comfort than truth.
Quote: The truth is out there and it's not beyond our reach.
Bare assettion fallacy.
Quote: Those who desire the truth more than they desire to find evidence that supports what they choose to believe in will eventually find the truth providing they never give up
WTF... I don't know where to begin other than to say this statement is riddled with stupid (try not to take too much offence).
1) this is about what we have sufficient reason to believe. Evidence for a proposition provides reason for believing in this proposition, provided that there isn't more evidence for a compeeting position - Your wizard has no evidence in his favor.
2) You've here said that you desire the truth, even though just above you made it pretty damn clear than you believe out of comfort.
3) Finding evidence that supports one's previous conclusions is a top down approach, that is theism that you have attacked, not the bottom up approach that follows the evidence to it's natural conclusion. there is no evidence at all that indicates the existence of any deity.
4) If one wants to know the truth there is no guarantee that they will eventually find it. This assumes the ultimate truth that you are so readily and foolishly attributing to a deity is possible to be known at all.
It seems to me that you are so needy for an ultimate conclusion that you have completely overlooked the fact that we at present have no rational way of arriving at one.
Quote:Firstly, what sort of alternative did you have in mind? And are you telling me, that if you had a personal experience with God, that wouldn't be enough?
Is the experience a muslim has for the existence of Allah specifically as a singular entity less valid than your experience of a trinity? Them two conclusions are contradictory, the Wizard cannot both have a son and not have a son simultaneously.
Do you think your experiences are more valid than those of anyone who disageees with you? If not then in order to determing whether or not your experiences are more legitimate you must resort to a higher standard of evience, and when you take that step and disgreard all the subjective noise there is out there you will be able to see that no such standard permits your theism.
I've noticed something that irks me, you avoid my questions and continue to pose your own. This is my
Post. You would do well to answer the few questions I pose to you. I have made efforts to answer the difficult questions you pose. And the questions I can't answer I've admitted that my wisdom isn't enough.
And as far as me taking offense to your views on my religion, don't give it another thought! ^^" I used to it.
You know, is there any reason to sling mud and accuse him of hypocrisy? He rather politely asked that you answer his questions before he would answer yours, and yo udecide he is being hypocritical. Evaluate the situation more closely, I don't think he was hypocritical at all.
Think back to Paul though... I thought he had it all figured out until he was struck down on Damascus, (that is really stretching it for my version of 'experience' but that point remains) He learned from this exp. changed his outlook drastically, and began living a Christ centered life. As i stated before, this was just the seed that took root for me, I've strengthened my faith since. But personal experience has compounded every chapter in my life.) and shook my head at the sight. I mean no offense, but it is air to admit I am skeptical. Just a quick elaboration (look at me using big words xD) on what your definition of Christian and Agnostic should clean it up.
