The Question of the Greek New Testament

[John V]

Still, the contradictions are so blatant. Ex. after his resurrection Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his father. Ten verses later he tells Thomas to touch the holes in his hands and feet.. So in many instances we're not talking about discrepancies between separate books.  In many cases books were spiced together with no regard for agreement. Makes me wonder if the writers and editors weren't using opium to induce what they thought was the Holy Spirit.

Those ten verses include this one:

John 20
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”

So the words spoken to Thomas are eight days after those spoken to Mary - presumably enough time for Jesus to ascend to the Father and return.

[Mudhammam]

To Min's credit, I must say I'm highly disappointed and disturbed that apparently Josh McDowell is involved with the mummy mask containing the fragment of Mark's Gospel:
https://youtu.be/Sf6S3bTjkko

An interesting blog by a critic regarding the above video:
http://www.bricecjones.com/blog/the-firs...-in-common

[Aractus]

Speculative?  What the fuck are you talking about?

WHERE IS IT?   Your fucking jesus freak heroes are playing "I know something you don't know" and making a claim about a document and you fall for it.

Let them produce it and give reputable scholars a crack at it.  Then you can talk to me about "speculative."

Sometimes  you don't have the brains you were born with.

Min, all I said was that Evans and Wallace have a mss of Mark that to the best of their knowledge has been dated to the first century.

If Evans and Wallace were to testify in a court of law, and say that, then it would be accepted as evidence of the existence of the document.

What I provided is evidence (not proof) of a first century mss. Now it may well turn out in the future that they are mistaken, but to make that argument now assumes from the start that they're wrong. And that's not an assumption that I'm willing to make because are reputable New Testament scholars - in fact Ehrman calls Evans a friend of his.

Now the CNN article you linked to, and to a lesser extent the Ehrman one I linked to, criticise the destruction of archaeological artefacts in order to find manuscripts. I think that argument is rubbish - pages of first, second, third, fourth and fifth century papyrus texts are far more valuable and interesting than the mummified masks that they come from, particularly if they do contain some complete readings (i.e. full pages of text). And the reason I say that is because it is by the fact that they were fashioned into a mask that preserved them - otherwise most of them would have turned to dust never to be seen again.

And thanks to Nestor for reaffirming this for me by posting that video. If it's true they have a mss that is 38 pages from Corinthians it sounds very significant regardless of which early century it's from. I hadn't seen that video, but the small glimpse of what they're doing along with the descriptions is very exciting.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Paul was the original BS'er.  By his own words he  claimed to be whoever the crowd wanted him to be.  He claimed to have been a Jew, a Roman, maybe a Greek.  Some people thought that he was an Egyptian terrorist.  He was the ultimate con man.

Are you referring to this passage in 1 Corinthians 9?

"Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

That's a good start.  

[Minimalist]

Min, all I said was that Evans and Wallace have a mss of Mark that to the best of their knowledge has been dated to the first century.

I have a hen that shits golden nickles but neither you nor anyone else can see it.

Do you buy that too?


Look, Danny.  How many times have these religious fuckwits found the "ark?"  How many Mt Sinai's have been identified?  Ron Wyatt claimed to have found the ark of the covenant...in addition to Noah's Ark and a host of other shit so preposterous that even the asshats at AiG called him a fraud.  And when those frauds call you a "fraud" you are a fucking fraud.

Just because some shithead with a theology degree says something does not make it true and no one in their right mind should accept their bullshit for a heartbeat.

Wake up, man.  

[Wyrd of Gawd]

^ I don't know where you come up with these wacky ideas. Paul was martyred for his beliefs, and as far as we can tell he was executed in the 60's in the first century. That's consistent with the internal evidence in his epistles, with the accounts given in Acts, with the written recollections by early 2nd century church figures, and by the fact that his presence in Christianity ends at the end of Acts which itself terminates in the mid-60's. There are no further letters from him, and there are no further mentions of him alive.

What kind of a con man is willing to suffer persecution and die for their con??

I suppose you have never heard about muslim suicide bombers?  People absolutely love dying for a cause.  It really doesn't matter what the cause is because someone will gladly die for it.  And if the dying involves some really nasty method they become even more eager to die for their cause because it demonstrates their high degree of faith in it.  Early Christians gladly went to horrible deaths because they were fed the line that if they died for their faith that they would go to heaven.  The sad fact is that they died for nothing and didn't even get decent burials.  

[Minimalist]

What kind of a con man is willing to suffer persecution and die for their con??

Yeah....





Who would do such a thing?

[Aractus]

Min, all I said was that Evans and Wallace have a mss of Mark that to the best of their knowledge has been dated to the first century.

I have a hen that shits golden nickles but neither you nor anyone else can see it.

Do you buy that too?


Look, Danny.  How many times have these religious fuckwits found the "ark?"  How many Mt Sinai's have been identified?  Ron Wyatt claimed to have found the ark of the covenant...in addition to Noah's Ark and a host of other shit so preposterous that even the asshats at AiG called him a fraud.  And when those frauds call you a "fraud" you are a fucking fraud.

Just because some shithead with a theology degree says something does not make it true and no one in their right mind should accept their bullshit for a heartbeat.

Wake up, man.  

Right then. So you're on record with equating a scientific discovery with crackpot claims.

I compared the masks mss to the dss and you compared them to crackpot ark discovery claims. We'll wait until 2017 and see who's right.

[Huggy Bear]

What kind of a con man is willing to suffer persecution and die for their con??

Yeah....

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Who would do such a thing?

I don't believe you get his point.

Giving an example of kamikazes or Muslim extremist aren't the same because they BELIEVE in what they are doing, a con man knows his con is just that, a con and would never stake his life on it. The example you gave are of people being deceived by the con.

Provide an example of a Muslim leader suicide bombing...

Paul was the original BS'er.  By his own words he  claimed to be whoever the crowd wanted him to be.  He claimed to have been a Jew, a Roman, maybe a Greek.  Some people thought that he was an Egyptian terrorist.  He was the ultimate con man.

Paul was a Jew who happened to have Roman citizenship.

[Aractus]

Agreed.