Stump the Christian?

[abaris]

Then move to the individual politician. What benefit would a non-christian be over a Christian?

Christian doesn't automatically equal dangerous idiot although you seem to think the shoe fits. I laid it out for you what makes up a dangerous idiot, deserving every bit of contempt - a literalist, who rather believes in 2000 year old scribblings than what contemporary science reveals.

[SteveII]

@Esquilax

The phrase "assumption there is no god" was the wrong word choice. Perspective was what I was going for. I do have to be careful in the future to distinguish between those (even in this forum) who clearly have no grasp whatsoever what Christians believe and those that are more aware of the specifics.

You can (and do) present good arguments for atheism vs Christianity. This is accomplished by working backwards using a "no assumptions" framework from NT reliability, science, Genesis, etc.and eventually arriving at "no need for God". You are not proving NT wrong, that no miracle ever happened, evil=no God, life evolved, or origins of the universe--just casting doubt by proposing alternative theories. All of which is very reasonable.

My point is that a Christian is rarely going to be shaken on the point of the existence of God so that as you present good reasons to question the Christian worldview, once you get to the "therefore no need for God" they are unwilling to follow across that line. They then look back at all your arguments and fills in "but if God exists then..." in front of every major issue and while their might be some modifications to the belief system (i.e. Gen 1-3), the Christian worldview is rebuilt a little stronger than before.

The OP asks how to stump the Christians. You certainly can stump a good many on a variety of topics if they have not studied them or if they have a poor understanding of the actual teaching (i.e. hurricanes for the wicked). That does not mean that these theological issues have not been discussed for two millennium and there is no answer.

[FatAndFaithless]

The OP is a poor way to approach discussion.

[SteveII]

Then move to the individual politician. What benefit would a non-christian be over a Christian?

Christian doesn't automatically equal dangerous idiot although you seem to think the shoe fits. I laid it out for you what makes up a dangerous idiot, deserving every bit of contempt - a literalist, who rather believes in 2000 year old scribblings than what contemporary science reveals.

And you have failed to tell me what the actual danger is if a politician believes in a literal Genesis? Someone who believes in a literal interpretation would just say that the earth was created with age or that the flood created the fossils or whatever. Regardless of whether that is correct or not, what is the "clear and present danger" of such a person to our country AND the detriment that it has caused for the first two centuries? 

[Cato]

So...for the past 230 years where Christians have held the majority of public offices in the US, they were a clear and present danger? In what specific way has all those collective years of believing in God been a hazard or some other detriment to our country over our entire history?

Then move to the individual politician. What benefit would a non-christian be over a Christian?

Steve,
You seem to be painting with a broad brush here. I'll assume, perhaps wrongly, that your intent is to shield believers from having their beliefs criticized.

Most Christians are reasonable in their daily lives; however, in the U.S. there is a significant number of bat-shit crazy Evangelicals that do present a danger. Can you imagine having a President and his closest advisers that actually think Jesus is coming back soon. How might you think this attitude would play when considering what to do in the Middle East?

The anti-science stance of this group also presents issues when it comes to the environment (God will take care of everything) and medical research (stem cells). As a Christian, would you really want someone in office that sincerely believes God sends natural disasters as punishment for some perceived biblical offense? If left unchecked, the religious right would be an unmitigated disaster to public education. Even today, significant resources are spent keeping them in check. They don't just try to fuck with science, but go out of their way to rewrite history that makes them uncomfortable. Need to manage a drought? Just pray.

Dominionism is also dangerous. What amuses me is that these are the same people that push laws designed to protect us from Sharia Law, laughable in itself, but would have no problem establishing a Christian theocracy.

There's not much I can do with the insanity described above. People like this cannot be reasoned with, only kept in their place. What I have a hard time with is the silence form reasonable Christians that don't have a problem with science, agree with humanist principles, and support a separation of church and state. If I were a Christian I would be hell bent on ensuring everyone understood that the lunatic fringe were just a bunch of cranks instead of politicking for the idea that ridiculous beliefs are beyond criticism.

[abaris]

And you have failed to tell me what the actual danger is if a politician believes in a literal Genesis?

Well, the end of days for starters. For quite a few literlalists it's like their own personal porn, longing for it to happen, wanting to make it happen. Let's just say I wouldn't entrust any of them with access to nuclear arms. A few of them, not politicians I hope, come on here on occasion to let us participate in their wet dreams.

But that's just the most obvious and dangerous. The discrimination and outright hate against certain groups of people is to wide a field to put it just into a few words.

[SteveII]

@Cato

You seem to be painting with a broad brush as well. Pew Research says roughly 7 in 10 people in the US identify with some branch of Christianity. If Christians are indeed detrimental to our society (like I keep hearing) we should really be in deep shit.

Why should someones religious beliefs be criticized if it does not interfere with the job? How can you say that a hypothetical Christian president would have a detrimental (to our country) view of the middle east? There is nothing in Christianity that says kill Muslims save the Jews. Do you have an example of bad foreign policy decisions that came as a direct result of a Christian teaching?

The religious right would be an unmitigated disaster to public education? How are they messing up science specifically? What is the rewrite history reference? In 60 seconds I googled "What country has more scientific discoveries" and the very first article (fourth result) Forbes says that the US produced 40% of the world biomedical research in 2009 (the next country had 10%). I don't have time to thoroughly research, but it seems from a cursory glance that the 200+ years of heavy Christian influence in the US has us producing a large share of the world's accumulated scientific knowledge.

Yes, there are fringe politicians and fringe groups that have stupid ideas. Some of these people are Christians and use the Bible to back up their fringe ideas. So what? There are plenty of things to keep them in check. What one can't say is that Christians present a clear and present danger to our country.

[FatAndFaithless]

I believe Cato made it explicitly clear that most Christians are regular reasonable people...and that's it's the literalist dominionists that might raise issues.

[dyresand]

I believe Cato made it explicitly clear that most Christians are regular reasonable people...and that's it's the literalist dominionists that might raise issues.

Literalists dominonists are the worst kind of people to run into. They deny so much shit like evolution etc. its a wonder why they do that. 

[abaris]

There is nothing in Christianity that says kill Muslims save the Jews.

If the bible is taken literally, it says exactly that. Not in so many words, but the jews have to reign over the whole of what was considered Israel at that time for Jesus to return. That's every peace deal out of the window for starters.

That's one of these nutters raving about it.

http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/Warning%20...salem.html

Also we made a pretty clear distinction between what we consider christian nutjobs and christians. Not every christian is a literalist.